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Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

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Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#251

Post by empthought »

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #249
empthought wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if Oxford and Cambridge weren’t cementing stratification, enabling parasitic administrators, and establishing a caste of ideologues since the 13th century… Nothing has changed; the elements of your second list have always been present. You just happen to have been told to disagree with the ideologues currently there by your own ideologues.

We're in full agreement. What is your point? "This idea is bad therefore all ideas are bad"? Some ideas are healthy pro-social enablers of a functioning society, others lead to the death of millions. Christianity is far from perfect, but compared to the competition it has a stellar track record.

The point is that your thesis is wrong.

“College used to…” vs “College today…”

No. College used to; college still does.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#252

Post by Y-Bopinator »

teekert wrote: post #194
momento wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My father was very strongly against my decision to get into web development (2012) and he echoed this sentiment heavily. I distinctly remember him yelling at me as a teenager; "you'll be living under a bridge in 5 years if you do this! India has this market!". He eventually kicked me out for not listening, forcing me to to borrow money from a friend to pay tuition in my final semester. Needless to say he was complete…

I have a lot of respect for your perseverance, it was the right thing to do. Make your own mistakes, making someone else's is just so... Painful. And it makes you feel weak. Similarly someone once advised me not to do a Masters in Molecular Biology because the market was screaming for Bachelors (back then in the Netherlands a Bachelor meant working in a production lab or something). I didn't listen and this also turn…

I thought you were going to say he kicked you out and now you're homeless and hate each other. That's what happened to me

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#253

Post by protomok »

lelanthran wrote: post #91
quicklime wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is being "closer to business problems" really the sole reason? Or even a big reason? From the numbers I've seen, DevOps people are the best paid of all types of developers, but they aren't closer to business problems than React/Rails devs. I think it has more to do with the fact that most embedded developers are working on niche platforms and niche problem domains, so they don't enjoy the same level of job mobility a…

> Is being "closer to business problems" really the sole reason? Or even a big reason? It's got to do with visibility. Those people more visible to the holders of the purse strings get paid more than those who aren't. The closer you are to the business side of things, the more visible you are to the profit line. Compensation is very closely tied to how visible the role is to the company profits and/or leaders. A high…

So true. I recall early in my career an older engineer telling me the closer you are to the money the more money you make.

> I realised that the HR head, who has few relevant skills and can viably be replaced by a mollusc, makes more than I do.

=)

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#254

Post by Y-Bopinator »

sersi wrote: post #140
hellbannedguy wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's ageism. Sorry for being so blunt, but I know to many people who were just uninteresting to human resourses after hitting 45-50. I know more than a few homeless people in my life, and over half were once Programmers. It makes me sick. I do know this, if you are in tech, save up that money. (I have never understood this industry's way of hiring. Long drawn out interviews, and candidates whom are just average that…

As someone who's been in charge of recruitment, I've made an effort in hiring people who are less likely to get a chance at other places (minorities, older candidates) One thing that stood out to me though is that a lot of the older candidates I interviewed that had been struggling had deep knowledge of a technology that's no longer used and had had very little interest during their career in learning new things outs…

Yeah fuck white guys

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#255

Post by raducu »

vagrantJin wrote: post #215
raducu wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really sorry for the relationship you have with your father. I've had similar experiences, but not as drastic as yours -- my father didn't allow me to use my bike for YEARS as a punishment for smashing my bike as a 10 year old (faulty chain, impulsive child). I guess this I would call the real toxic masculinity. Unfortunately there's nothing much you can do, except build your life around it, keep your boundaries…

> I guess this I would call the real toxic masculinity. HN is the last place I would have expected to see these words. Which is slightly interesting take on a parent - I presume they housed you, fed you, got you educated and relatively safe...I cant possibly imagine you are writing this from a rehab facility or jail. And yet, for denying you a bicycle deems that man "toxic"? And what does a parent taking away a privi…

Denying a child his bike for YEARS, and I mean years gatheting dust in the shed is toxic by my definition, obviously not the single thing my father did that I would label this as an example of toxic masculinity, otherwise I'd call it "odd", also my dad had enough qualities that I don't label him as abusive, in my mind this is an example of over the top discipline + the other cultural stuff that in my mind I would call toxic masculinity.

I am certainly grateful to my father for all the material support he provided, and he did provide a lot and still insists he does, even though I constantly remind him I'm an adult and quite well off myself.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#256

Post by Aeolun »

cm2187 wrote: post #214
donatj wrote: post #49

I don’t hear much about it these days, but circa 2004 when I was going into computer science I had multiple teachers and a guidance counselor warn me that all the jobs would be going to India and tell me I should pursue something else. This seemed to be very much the prevailing wisdom of the time. I pursued it anyway as it was my passion. I was one of five students in my program that had been a huge multi-campus prog…

In all fairness, where I work (large european financial institution), all the dev jobs have been moved to India.

But is it working out? Or is everything now an infinite shitstorm?

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#257

Post by qmmmur »

Fnoord wrote: post #223
raducu wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really sorry for the relationship you have with your father. I've had similar experiences, but not as drastic as yours -- my father didn't allow me to use my bike for YEARS as a punishment for smashing my bike as a 10 year old (faulty chain, impulsive child). I guess this I would call the real toxic masculinity. Unfortunately there's nothing much you can do, except build your life around it, keep your boundaries…

That's a harsh punishment. What kind of effect did it have on you? I remember I biked to school at that age (~10-15 min). If I damaged one of my tools, such as my bike or my shoes, it'd look damaged, and I disliked that. But I had to cope with that. That was a punishment by itself. I wasn't able to get a job as system administrator (even though I believe I'd liked it) because I can't program. I tried it various times…

Sounds like you gave it a shot and it didn't work and foilund something fulfilling. To me that is the stock standard trial and error of life :)

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#258

Post by raducu »

me_me_me wrote: post #222
vagrantJin wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess this I would call the real toxic masculinity. HN is the last place I would have expected to see these words. Which is slightly interesting take on a parent - I presume they housed you, fed you, got you educated and relatively safe...I cant possibly imagine you are writing this from a rehab facility or jail. And yet, for denying you a bicycle deems that man "toxic"? And what does a parent taking away a privi…

>> my father didn't allow me to use my bike for YEARS as a punishment for smashing my bike as a 10 year old Seriously, being so strict to punish a 10yrs old kid for years is not a sign of a toxic personality? Parents suppose to build theirs kids character and not stomp on it to make them 'tough'. toxic masculinity is not being manly man man. Its being insecure and lashing out at anyone who disagrees with you or is no…

The last bit fits the bill the most in his case -- he took it as a huge personal attack that I smashed the bike he bought, and the tough discipline he was raised in is why I labeled it as toxic masculinity.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#259

Post by throwaway3699 »

qsort wrote: post #104
lordnacho wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the way I'd phrase it is the knowledge you learn at university, to the extent that it's applicable, is actually just indexing. So for instance I figured out that numerical methods are a thing that you can use to approximately solve differential equations, which often don't have a nice analytical solution. Can I solve differential equations? Not anymore. Can I solve one by the end of this week? Definitely. What…

I largely agree with your points, but i'd say it's more "intuition building". To make a silly example, I don't know C# at all, in fact I have never written a single line of C#, but I'm very confident I could get up to speed relatively quickly because I know Java fairly well. This is simply due to the fact that after a while you just "get" how things work. Similarly, even though I'm by no means a mathematician, I feel…

I was able to build a decent intuition in both maths and programming before going to university. It's not something specific to higher ed, just experience.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#260

Post by ajuc »

vagrantJin wrote: post #215
raducu wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really sorry for the relationship you have with your father. I've had similar experiences, but not as drastic as yours -- my father didn't allow me to use my bike for YEARS as a punishment for smashing my bike as a 10 year old (faulty chain, impulsive child). I guess this I would call the real toxic masculinity. Unfortunately there's nothing much you can do, except build your life around it, keep your boundaries…

> I guess this I would call the real toxic masculinity. HN is the last place I would have expected to see these words. Which is slightly interesting take on a parent - I presume they housed you, fed you, got you educated and relatively safe...I cant possibly imagine you are writing this from a rehab facility or jail. And yet, for denying you a bicycle deems that man "toxic"? And what does a parent taking away a privi…

You don't need to be a drunkard to drink alcohol, and you don't need to be permanently toxic to exhibit toxic masculinity. I dislike the term (because people immediately get defensive) but the concept is definitely useful and describes a real phenomena.

It's not about masculinity being inherently toxic, it's about toxic expectations men are expected to fulfill by the society.

And you don't have to have your human rights infringed, for example something as simple as saying "you are useless" is toxic, yet it doesn't infringe on any rights. Not everything that's legal is good.

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