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How to Work Hard

paulgraham.com

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Re: How to Work Hard

#251

Post by pcbro141 »

sidlls wrote: post #175
sidlls wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> millionaire is a common outcome for software developers who work hard through their 20s and 30s now. No, it's not. It's common for some FAANG engineers. It's not common at all for the industry as a whole. Look at all these comments doubling-down on the "7%/$10k-per-year" arithmetic, as if the only thing that affects savings rates is knowledge of this basic math. For a data driven community there sure are a lot of p…

All these replies with the typical 7% return for 20-30 years calculations are missing the point. I know what the arithmetic is. It is not common to be in a position to do that, even in the software industry.

Software Developer Median Salary (2020): $110,140 per year

That sounds like a lot of software developers are in a position to put away $10k+/year to me.

Source: BLS, https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...

Re: How to Work Hard

#252

Post by Sr_developer »

> It was similar with Lionel Messi. He had great natural ability, but when his youth coaches talk about him, what they remember is not his talent but his dedication and his desire to win.

This is not true, everyone who knows even just a little bit about football (I suppose not many people here) would know Messi was the preternatural talent (not like he has not worked hard, but his talent is by far his biggest asset), it is C Ronaldo in any case who is a totally dedicated person to training.

You dont do this at 8-10 because you are a "hard-worker", you do it because you won the genetic lottery:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j9POXpurPU

As always, the Gell-Mann amnesia effect in full effect.

Re: How to Work Hard

#253

Post by giantg2 »

xyzelement wrote: post #171
minikites wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The real world doesn't work that way and using statistical outliers like Gates is disingenuous to the discussion about hard work and how it applies to normal people. Exactly. This is the central lie that sustains capitalism. Wealthy C-level executives get rich when the rest of us work hard, which is why they harp on "working hard" so much. There's no reason to work hard when all the benefits go to the already-wealth…

// There's no reason to work hard when all the benefits go to the already-wealthy above you, which is why they try to obscure that fact in as many ways as possible I have always been an employee and yet I am thrilled and thankful for the financial returns. Looking around my neighborhood, the same is true for most folks around me. There are not guarantees in life but if you have the combination of luck, skill and hard…

"If you don't believe good employer/employee relationship is possible, you won't do your part and it will be a self fulfilling prophecy."

I agree that it can become self-fulfilling. However, there are some of us who started out believing the best and changed their minds after being repeatedly screwed over.

Re: How to Work Hard

#254

Post by notyourwork »

sidlls wrote: post #175
sidlls wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> millionaire is a common outcome for software developers who work hard through their 20s and 30s now. No, it's not. It's common for some FAANG engineers. It's not common at all for the industry as a whole. Look at all these comments doubling-down on the "7%/$10k-per-year" arithmetic, as if the only thing that affects savings rates is knowledge of this basic math. For a data driven community there sure are a lot of p…

All these replies with the typical 7% return for 20-30 years calculations are missing the point. I know what the arithmetic is. It is not common to be in a position to do that, even in the software industry.

If you start maxing out retirements in your first job and continue to do so throughout your career, raises will be raises and you'll continue to save. If you tap into your max savings per year in start of your career, you'll have trouble pairing that income back and putting it away for savings. Max out your retirement funds early and never look back.

Re: How to Work Hard

#255

Post by nvarsj »

Has hard work burned anyone else out? I spent my 20s working my ass off as an employee, and while it helped my career a lot, I am completely burned out now. All that creative work and effort which didn't end up amounting to much personally. Maybe the caveat to working hard is you should work hard for yourself and not others.

Re: How to Work Hard

#256

Post by cloverich »

giantg2 wrote: post #177
pjfin123 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a $100,000 salary, $50,000 expenses, 30% tax rate, and 5% real returns you could put away $20,000 a year and have a million (2021) dollars in 26 years. Hardly easy but not out of the realm of possibility for a persistent and highly paid software developer.

But that still doesn't fit the paradigm presented by using Gates as an example. That you work really hard in your 20s and you're set for life.

If you use his definition of working hard, by the time you are 30-year old software developer you'll have valuable skills and a valuable network in addition to a solid amount of money. You may be unable to _retire_ at 30 but you will, generally speaking, be setup for success for the rest of your life.

Re: How to Work Hard

#257

Post by xyzelement »

minikites wrote: post #217
xyzelement wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

// There's no reason to work hard when all the benefits go to the already-wealthy above you, which is why they try to obscure that fact in as many ways as possible I have always been an employee and yet I am thrilled and thankful for the financial returns. Looking around my neighborhood, the same is true for most folks around me. There are not guarantees in life but if you have the combination of luck, skill and hard…

>I am lucky enough that this has been the case for my 18 year career so far and not uncommon. You shouldn't need luck to get food and shelter, which is how our current economic system works and the fact that it works this way upsets me greatly. >What you are saying on the other hand is a dead end. If you don't believe good employer/employee relationship is possible, you won't do your part and it will be a self fulfil…

// You shouldn't need luck to get food and shelter

Most people in the US have both, but that's also irrelevant to the point I responded to - his claim was that you can't do well by being an employee which is untrue.

// Why is change always demanded from those without power by those with power?

I am not demanding any change. However, if you are not happy with your situation, the most actionable place for you to change it is with yourself. Start with yourself FIRST.

Re: How to Work Hard

#258

Post by closeparen »

hatchnyc wrote: post #208
denimnerd42 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone making high 5 or low 6 figures will be a millionaire at the start retirement if they can save a modest amount from a reasonably early start, say 30 years old.

While technically correct, this doesn't square with most people's intuitive sense of what "being a millionaire" means. It's not having a solid retirement nest egg, it is being able to jet off to your yacht in St. Tropez on a private jet. I think this is largely due to inflation. A million dollars in the 50s or 60s would be around 10 million today, while at the turn of the 20th century when the term really became popu…

But most people's intuitive sense of "being a millionaire" informs how they think about tax policy...

Re: How to Work Hard

#259

Post by minikites »

overtonwhy wrote: post #159
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in their 20s that they would be millionaires or billionaires Billionaire isn’t a realistic goal, but millionaire is a common outcome for software developers who work hard through their 20s and 30s now. It doesn’t even require a FAANG job or living in a super expensive city any more, just wise job selection, a reasonable amount of financial savvy and budget adhere…

Allow yourself to be exploited by capital in exchange for experience and you'll probably be rewarded later when you get to exploit inexperienced people? Sounds like a big risk for labor and a big win for capital.

Well said. That's why capital has to write essays like this to make it seem like a better deal than it is, lest the rest of us figure it out and organize.

Re: How to Work Hard

#260

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

giantg2 wrote: post #44

Hard work can be good, but only if you own a substantial capital interest in the company/result. But if you can hire people to do it for you, then you can reap the benefits and live a life worth living. If you are just part of the labor and not the capital, then there really isn't an incentive to work harder than necessary to keep you job or earn a measly raise. If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in…

I think that hard work is also good if you're working towards an outcome that isn't money/ownership.

In my experience the zero sum nature of those things tends to make it harder to be intrinsically motivated towards the work.

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