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Europe's Software Problem

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Re: Europe's Software Problem

#251

Post by varjag »

Foobar8568 wrote: post #248
varjag wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The biggest barrier for any person who wants to launch something is: paperwork around establishing a company. Seriously? Your plumber managed to establish a company. That kebab place across the street. The delivery guy subcontracting for courier service. And the company that wants to conquer the world can't?

Yeah I remember some big4 companies saying that France is among the easiest country to incorporate a company ( I think it was E&Y). The problem is more on : 1 - Europe can't have a common language 2 - Each country will support first their own companies, then US, then other competitive European companies 3 - A mess to expend outside of its own country. 4 - Culture of useless consultancy companies (Atos, Alten, Altran,…

Much of it is true. However as for #2, there are often at least clusters of countries where expansion isn't a big deal (BeNeLux, Nordics, Baltic…) so it's not that terrible. And supporting the US companies, well maybe it's true for the whales but nobody gives two damns about competing American startups.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#252

Post by tonyedgecombe »

cletus wrote: post #154
BlargMcLarg wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Being comfortable makes you less risk-averse, even lazy Do you mean more risk-averse? Anyway, to comment on this point. Non-Europeans, get quite a few things mixed up. >We all joke on here about Europe with its 6-8 weeks of vacation, 35 hour work weeks, universal health care and a year of maternity of leave to some extent. The bigger problem is two-fold and has to do with your second point: 1. Europeans have very se…

> Do you mean more risk-averse? I do. Thanks. Corrected. > Europeans have very set schedules That's another way of describing conformity, in this case to cultural norms. The best way I can describe it is like this: in the UK (and the US), the default position is that things are allowed unless they're specifically forbidden. In continental Europe, it's the reverse: everything is disallowed unless it's specifically per…

I wonder about the UK. When I created my business I started by contracting and using the inevitable downtime to get my products off the ground. Thanks to IR35 I would find that very difficult now.

Then you have stuff like workplace pensions which are an administrative mine field.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#253

Post by atq2119 »

myfavoritedog wrote: post #222
fvdessen wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason the US has freely flowing funding is because the VC has an immense amount of cash from the previous generations of successful Unicorns. So why was it (and still is) easier to raise unicorns in the USA ? The thing that separate the internet economy with the traditional is the massive network effects that makes it a winner take all game. And at that game the USA has a massive home advantage with a huge cultu…

As another comment pointed out, the small countries vs US Network effects excuse doesn't really fare well when you look at the successful startup environment of Israel. The USA is perfectly aware of this dynamic because faced with TikTok, their first reflex was to try to ban them. And this take is just hot garbage.

How many unicorns are from Israel, though?

Israel should be lauded for managing to be an intensely vibrant and high-tech country, and European countries should try to learn from that, but even that is apparently not quite sufficient. So I think GP has a point.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#254

Post by bitcurious »

zozbot234 wrote: post #228
fvdessen wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason the US has freely flowing funding is because the VC has an immense amount of cash from the previous generations of successful Unicorns. So why was it (and still is) easier to raise unicorns in the USA ? The thing that separate the internet economy with the traditional is the massive network effects that makes it a winner take all game. And at that game the USA has a massive home advantage with a huge cultu…

> Once you have a Facebook, you can't have a second one, even with all the VC cash, talent & creativity in the world. That's not how it works, just look at MySpace. Even sites with a lot of market share are sometimes overtaken by a competitor. The best alternative to Facebook in a fragmented market like Europe is federation across multiple social "hosting" sites with a regional focus, based on standards that are eith…

>That's not how it works, just look at MySpace.

It recently blew my mind to learn just how small MySpace was. Peak user count was ~75.9 million, total. Facebook has ~2.85 billion active users.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#255

Post by selfhoster11 »

wyager wrote: post #211
selfhoster11 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. The US has those things and it's turning into a "third world country with a Gucci belt" (as someone put it) for everyone except the 1% and the indispensable knowledge worker class that can't be automated away or juiced dry for all the productivity they are capa…

> a "third world country with a Gucci belt" (as someone put it) for everyone except the 1% The median American is much richer than the median European.

While also spending more money on various things, or having to spend them on privatised health care etc. It's not directly comparable. My point also discussed things like infrastructure and public services, which are often very neglected compared to their European counterparts.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#256

Post by unknownOrigin »

fvdessen wrote: post #240
misterbwong wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A second reason is simply that the US as a big homogeneous market is a nice one to tackle for European companies as well. And often that means having a (big) presence in the US. The EU is basically many markets unified by really complex rules, bureaucracy, etc. There is free traffic of people but companies have a harder time dealing with local variations in legislation, hurdles for billing and taxation (e.g. VAT), ba…

It goes far beyond that. If you are in Italy and want to expand to Germany you need to hire german speaking people and that means opening a Sales Office in Germany, and dealing with different labour regulations etc.

And just to add to this, from a certain level (revenue) that's not that high (and depends on idividual states) you need a presence (VAT registration) and a business bank account in the country you're selling your services/goods in, even if you're not actually located there. E.g. a medium sized online shop based in the Czech Republic that is shipping to Hungary. Now imagine this if you're shipping to many EU states... not great.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#257

Post by opportune »

thiago_fm wrote: post #4

This problem will never get fixed. The author forgot to mention in depth the main reason why EU isn't even in the game: culture. In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. A lot of third world countries are years ahead of the whole EU continent in that aspect. I say this because I live in Europe for the q…

I have met many ambitious European people in the US. Europe has ambitious people, they just don’t make it easy for them to do their thing; it’s better for ambitious people to just go to the US than to take on the monumental task of changing the culture in Europe or to swim upstream and try to start a business anyway.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#258

Post by raverbashing »

fvdessen wrote: post #240
misterbwong wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A second reason is simply that the US as a big homogeneous market is a nice one to tackle for European companies as well. And often that means having a (big) presence in the US. The EU is basically many markets unified by really complex rules, bureaucracy, etc. There is free traffic of people but companies have a harder time dealing with local variations in legislation, hurdles for billing and taxation (e.g. VAT), ba…

It goes far beyond that. If you are in Italy and want to expand to Germany you need to hire german speaking people and that means opening a Sales Office in Germany, and dealing with different labour regulations etc.

> you need to hire german speaking people and that means opening a Sales Office in Germany

No you don't need that. You can have your German speaking people move to Italy and work from there. That's the whole point of the EU.

The same for VAT, you can register in one country and have that sent to multiple countries according to your sales. No presence needed

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#259

Post by opportune »

mmarq wrote: post #166
thiago_fm wrote: post #4

This problem will never get fixed. The author forgot to mention in depth the main reason why EU isn't even in the game: culture. In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. A lot of third world countries are years ahead of the whole EU continent in that aspect. I say this because I live in Europe for the q…

Software development and other tech jobs were low-status professions in Europe (the UK being a partial exception) up until a few years ago. Once a friend told me some thing like "it is not fair that you make more money than I do, I have a degree in literature and, with all due respect, you are just a guy that works with computers". This was not an absurd conversation to hear anywhere in continental Europe in the earl…

This is something I’ve noticed working with European people and also traveling.

I think there is a cycle here where because working with software is considered low status, many good software people leave, and lots of smart people probably do not go into the field at all unless they truly love software. This would tend to drive the talent pool down, IMO, which keeps away good software jobs, keeping it low status.

In the US for example writing software is usually considered wholly different from “IT” whereas in Europe IT encompasses both. That’s probably another thing bringing its status down. You are grouping software engineers with people plugging in printers and solving Karen’s support ticket (no offense IT people).

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#260

Post by raverbashing »

egman_ekki wrote: post #202
_-david-_ wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden does not have the highest billionaires per capita. Hong Kong, Monaco, Switzerland all have higher rates for example. There are several additional places as well. Is Borland actually a European company? It looks like it was started in California and has a headquarters in Texas. It is now owned by a company in the UK, but it doesnt really seem European to me.

From the wikipedia article: > Borland Ltd. was founded in August 1981 by three Danish citizens, Niels Jensen, Ole Henriksen, and Mogens Glad, to develop [...] However, response to the company's products at the CP/M-82 show in San Francisco showed that a U.S. company would be needed to reach the American market. They met Philippe Kahn, who had just moved to Silicon Valley... So yes, Borland is a US company, but founde…

Well in 1981 if you wanted to sell stuff for personal computers you would have to be in the Valley. No question about it.

I'd say it would have been hard to sell anything that specific even elsewhere in the US at the time.

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