Efficiency Is the Enemy • Hacker News Board

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#251

Post by scsilver » Wed, May 05, 2021, 1:18 AM UTC

eikenberry wrote: post #233

hinkley wrote: post #165

One of the uncomfortable conversations we're going to have to have soon is about how 'Flow State' is efficient but ineffective. One of the characteristics of Flow State is a diminished sense of considering the consequences of an action. Exactly the "so busy figuring out if they could do it that they didn't stop to think if they should do it". In particular I've noticed that people get extremely defensive about code t…

I think you're misconstruing the Zone with the Flow State. Note these are really just arbitrary terms with vague meanings, but I think it's still useful to have terms to root the discussion. What they have in common is the aspect of no-self, where you lose your sense of self and become what you're doing. But I think how this manifests is different. In the Zone is where you have the full context of the problem in your…

Usuallly you are going over old grooves in a flow state, Iostly get them with physical actions like skiing or playing an instrument. Its like an autopilot mode. If one needs to reason, they must necessarily pop out of flow-state, potentially just back into the "zone" .

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#252

Post by stretchwithme » Wed, May 05, 2021, 1:25 AM UTC

Seems like some of the same ideas in Donald Reinertsen presents in his books and videos. He thinks in queues and the cost of delay.

The cost of delay when you try to keep everyone busy all the time.

I'm reading his book The Principles of Product Development Flow.

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#253

Post by fallous » Wed, May 05, 2021, 1:26 AM UTC

One problem is that we've turned "efficient" into some sort of noun that is self-referential, rather than the actual definition which is constrained to a particular result. "We must be efficient." should beg the question "to achieve what?"

The second problem is that efficiency is often applied across many small scopes of operation, ignoring the effects on efficiency at greater scope. You can be tactically efficient at the expense of strategic goals.

The third problem is that efficiency is often over-fitted in a chase for maximalism, which necessarily creates a rigid system that is highly dependent on little or no variation between the past and an expected future. Just-in-time supply chains fell apart due to things like the covid-19 lockdowns, which often cascaded across both vertical levels of specific industries as well as across industries.

From a system design point of view, building a system that has no flexibility in scaling but is instead maximally efficient based on current (and recent past) levels of demand is a disaster waiting to happen. In the old days we'd laugh at a commercial site that got slashdotted because it was incapable of handling burst demand.

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#254

Post by Nasrudith » Wed, May 05, 2021, 1:28 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #120

periheli0n wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a whole spectrum of bureaucracy and overregulation in the “West”. The EU is probably worst. The US are quite relaxed in comparison. The UK is somewhere in the middle.

> The US are quite relaxed in comparison. This is basically a myth at this point, bolstered by how much more we complain about it. The US made the colossal mistake of trying to do regulation at the federal level, basically equivalent to doing it at the EU level, which the EU is now attempting to do more of and discovering what a trash fire it is. And one of the big reasons for that is that the more centrally the regu…

That centralization leads to corruption is a common claim but I have seen the exact opposite. Being smaller and unwatched leads to more corruption. Smaller towns can have plenty of their local corruption and parochial influence which are more accessible.

National level winds up cared about by everybody as it isn't a "someone else's problem" situation and thus winds up watched far more.

Then there is the matter of consistency with across state laws and enforcement. One set of rules is easier to comply with and more consistent in expectations, especially when states wind up fighting over jurisdiction.

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#255

Post by Apofis » Wed, May 05, 2021, 1:29 AM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #237

mlac wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that kills me about the ticketing systems is that they are often put into place in a way that is locally efficient but does not make sense globally. For example, an application owner might have to submit a ticket to request an upgrade once a year (or when a new OS is supported). What often happens is that the application owner now has to know about, find, and correctly understand a form that they see once (…

A lot of medium-to-large organizations used to have dedicated administrative staff, not just for senior management, but for everyone. It was good because the people in the admin pools were experts at navigating the organizational structures. They did it every day, all the time, for everyone, so they knew the tricks. In the interest of cutting labor costs, those jobs were cut, and self-service systems like the ones yo…

Use Jira, make your own bookings (etc), and submit reimbursement requests or have an assistant and earn quite a bit less... hmmm.

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#256

Post by stretchwithme » Wed, May 05, 2021, 1:30 AM UTC

zmmmmm wrote: post #210

mlac wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that kills me about the ticketing systems is that they are often put into place in a way that is locally efficient but does not make sense globally. For example, an application owner might have to submit a ticket to request an upgrade once a year (or when a new OS is supported). What often happens is that the application owner now has to know about, find, and correctly understand a form that they see once (…

> all of the systems that were designed to take away the need for administrative assistants may once again require an assistant to navigate efficiently Made me laugh. My org has a completely automated online self-service travel booking system that even includes dedicated support from a corporate travel agent - and I recently needed a single flight booked for a day in another city (about the simplest travel you can do…

I wonder how much the company would save if they just gave you a budget for the trip and let you make the arrangements yourself on your own time and keep the difference.

I trusted Amazon to book me a simple flight for an interview and I wound up with the absolute worst seat on the plane. The only thing that saved my 6'2" frame from being crushed into a corner was the kindness of a stranger who gave me their seat on the aisle. I know I can do better on my own!

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#257

Post by alexjplant » Wed, May 05, 2021, 1:38 AM UTC

Apofis wrote: post #255

cratermoon wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of medium-to-large organizations used to have dedicated administrative staff, not just for senior management, but for everyone. It was good because the people in the admin pools were experts at navigating the organizational structures. They did it every day, all the time, for everyone, so they knew the tricks. In the interest of cutting labor costs, those jobs were cut, and self-service systems like the ones yo…

Use Jira, make your own bookings (etc), and submit reimbursement requests or have an assistant and earn quite a bit less... hmmm.

Are the savings from not hiring assistants being passed on to rank-and-file employees via salary or distributed to shareholders and the C-suite? An employee's salary doesn't magically go up because their burdened rate goes down.

Let's also not forget the fact that if you're in contracting/consulting it's more lucrative for you to charge the customer for a technical person's expensive time spent on administrivia than it is to hire additional labor and bill them for "the help".

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#258

Post by ChrisMarshallNY » Wed, May 05, 2021, 1:38 AM UTC

When I get stuck on a problem, or am switching the module I’m developing, I’ll often take a couple of hours, and watch something on the tube.

When I get back to the task, I tend to get it completed in no time at all, or solve the problem quickly.

I will sometimes, take the rest of the day off. I did that today. I’m starting work on a fairly significant feature that will touch almost every layer of code, and I can’t afford to pooch it.

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#259

Post by bluGill » Wed, May 05, 2021, 1:51 AM UTC

bumby wrote: post #175

bluGill wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope work isn't a net-netagive, but there are always things that must be done that you don't want to do. Sometimes you can hire someone else, but often you cannot.

I was probably too sloppy in my wording. I interpreted the OP to mean work may have negative utility for the individual person, but not in the aggregate. I don't know that the idea that work is essential individual sacrifice for some end goal is particularly healthy.

I would hope for your own health you clean your dishes after you eat. There are a number of distasteful jobs that have to be done.

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#260

Post by bluGill » Wed, May 05, 2021, 1:55 AM UTC

jfim wrote: post #118

bluGill wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Systems are better too though. When I was an intern all meeting scheduling was done on some convoluted mainframe system. Most of my co-workers had forgot their login to the system, they either grabbed a room that was empty and left if someone showed up, or they had the secretary schedule it (these were computer programmers Sun workstations on their desk, not computer haters who refused to learn). One day we rolled ou…

Your example definitely is something that should have been automated and not good use of an administrative assistant's time, but humans are good at navigating unclear processes and organizations. For example, in one of my internships, it turns out that someone mistyped my address so my paychecks were sent to the wrong building; after a few weeks of that not getting resolved through HR, the administrative assistant to…

For expense types I'm told it used to be eaiser. Then some scammers figured out they could send invoices and they would be paid now everyone needs to waste time tracking little expenses because if you don't even more money is wasted.

So there is a trade off which means some of the tedious jobs can't be automated. Though i agree I shouldn't have to separate my hotel room from meals at the hotel.