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What is Chia cryptocurrency and why is it bad news for hard drives?

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Re: What is Chia cryptocurrency and why is it bad news for hard drives?

#251
post #133
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how a forum called Hacker News is so dismissive of an invention that should be right up a hacker's alley. Innovative, technical, cryptographic and decentralized. Cryptocurrencies feel like something straight out of a cyberpunk novel.

Because it doesn't work. I wish it worked! It does feel like something out of a cyberpunk novel. I loved "Crypronomicon." There's nothing punk about Bitcoin anymore, though. IBM, the least punk organization in the history of mankind, wants to sell you a blockchain. The promise of Bitcoin is the idea that individuals, not large financial concerns, have the power. Coinbase just IPO'd for an eye watering amount of money…

That's the weirdest take on why blockchain doesn't work I've seen so far. The entire point of these projects is that people do whatever they want with them. Monero exists if you want a purist approach and so does ergo.

Re: What is Chia cryptocurrency and why is it bad news for hard drives?

#252
post #215
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the eth (and who knows how many other coin) crowd certainly does still mine on gpus. And is actively on the path to proof of stake.

> proof of stake Is this past the point of basic research? Cold fusion has been on a path for 50 years.

The level of ignorance and yet strength of belief here is astounding

Re: What is Chia cryptocurrency and why is it bad news for hard drives?

#253
I don't blame the people buying up the GPUs to mine these cryptocurrencies but the vendors who allow them to do. It is absolutely criminal that they don't filter out these miners when they sell these products. They can easily make it possibly to only allow maybe 1 or 2 of these computers are shipped to a certain address or only one graphics card per a credit card. Whatever way they choose. Even putting a captcha to knock out the robo buyers would probably be enough.

They have an obligation to video game makers, hospitals, and other businesses to sell them so that people that need them for other purposes can purchase them at reasonable prices. It's also on the govt to make sure that this happens.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: What is Chia cryptocurrency and why is it bad news for hard drives?

#254
post #245
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in other words, there's a campaign (centralized or not) to pump Chia on HN? :(

It's not that many articles, and they're not all favorable. Please don't break the site guidelines like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> they're not all favorable

That doesn't matter. It still generates buzz. People will pour resources into a crypto-currency even when it's established up front as a joke.

> don't break the site guidelines like this.

I take it the rule was triggered by the word "campaign":

>> So in other words, there's a campaign (centralized or not) to pump Chia on HN? :(

I pretty clearly indicated that I don't think it's necessarily a coordinated thing. It's more of a phenomenon than a "brigade" or "astroturfing", but what should we call it? What should I say? How should I feel about a disturbing trend that you've pointed out?

Furthermore, you've already shared your data, so there's no reason for me to email you about it per the guidelines. I appreciate the vigilance and hard work, but I think we can agree you're mistaken this time.

Re: What is Chia cryptocurrency and why is it bad news for hard drives?

#255
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> proof of stake Is this past the point of basic research? Cold fusion has been on a path for 50 years.

The level of ignorance and yet strength of belief here is astounding

It's all right. For every unjustified cryptocurrency sceptic such as myself, there are 10000 cryptocurrency zealots pumping and dumping every day. Hodl, right?

Re: What is Chia cryptocurrency and why is it bad news for hard drives?

#256
post #94

I just... do not understand how smart, even _brilliant_ people, the sort of people who know enough to make something like this, can look at Bitcoin... the waste, the way it has utterly failed to achieve what it set out to do[1], everything, and thinks, I know, I want to do that, but instead of blowing up the market for GPUs it'll be SSDs. Why? To get rich? It even seems doubtful to me that the people who developed Ch…

> a cambrian explosion in third parties

Which is all that is needed to create a fair bargaining position for the consumers.

Re: What is Chia cryptocurrency and why is it bad news for hard drives?

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who uses Bitcoin for peer-to-peer payments? And the cryptocurrency ecosystem as it exists right now, far from allowing people to transact without third parties Bitcoin may not be what it set out to be, but how is that a bad thing? The market decided whatever it should be. What bitcoin did is inspire creation of many, genuinely interesting currencies, some even learning from bitcoin's failings: Stellar.org that aims…

Is there an accessible introduction, a YouTube video perhaps, to crypto instruments beyond Bitcoin? I have a basic understanding of how bitcoin works from SecurityNow and would like to learn just a bit more to test the waters.

The real meat of any the cryptocurrencies is in their consensus algorithm, which can be difficult to understand. Chia has these resources listed:

> We have academic papers and presentations that give detail about our new consensus algorithm and blockchain software. In 2019 we revealed our Green Paper outlining the construction of Proofs of Space and Time and illustrating many of the design choices of Chia.

>

> We have updated our consensus algorithm and you can review and commment on our working document.

>

> There is also a 2019 talk from Mariano Sorgente at MIT on how to achieve Nakamoto consensus with Proof of Space and VDFs.

>

> Bram Cohen presented at Stanford on February 2018 on Proofs of Space. Our advisors, Dan Boneh, Benedikt Bünz, and Ben Fisch published a survey of VDFs which are the underlying technology of Proof of Time. Lipa Long published an explanation of class groups that our Proofs of Time is based on. Bram presented Beyond Hellman’s Time-Memory Trade-Offs with Applications to Proofs of Space at BPASE ‘18 in January 2018 based on the academic paper and these slides by Hamza Abusalah. Ben Fisch gave a talk at BPASE 2018 in January 2018 on Verifiable Delay Functions. Bram spoke at Blockchain at Berkeley (which starts about 20:00) in March 2018 with slides. Bram gave a talk at BPASE 2017 in January 2017 on removing waste with Proofs of Space and Time (slides).

>

> Bram gave a talk at SF Bitcoin Devs Seminar about data structures for scaling Bitcoin with slides and Merkle Set code. Bram gave a talk at SF Bitcoin Devs Seminar about removing waste from cryptocurrencies.

Re: What is Chia cryptocurrency and why is it bad news for hard drives?

#258
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you prevent malicious research projects in a decentralized system?

What would you consider malicious?

A project that provides credits without doing valuable research.

Re: What is Chia cryptocurrency and why is it bad news for hard drives?

#259
post #174
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I am the lead developer of Orchid.) Can you tell me where you read that bit about "without becoming a partner"? It is sort of correct--like, I can see how that argument could be made--but not really true in any fundamental sense... it certainly isn't true enough that I would have personally said it to someone, as if you want to provide bandwidth you absolutely can, it is just highly unlikely anyone will buy it, as t…

The only "documentation" I was able to find researching how to mine it was a Reddit thread suggesting that you have to stake a large amount of OTX to in turn be able to sell bandwidth and in turn make OTX. Previously in my hunt for documentation I stumbled upon the partners page with 4 VPN providers featured at the top of the page and the whole thing sort of clicked. I did find a Github mono-repo for what looked like…

(I didn't read this comment before as I simply forgot about this thread at the time; I imagine you won't see this reply, now, though ;P. And, sadly, I can almost guarantee I won't see a reply to this message if you did leave one, for reasons even deeper and more compounded.)

FWIW, I feel like there is nuance that is being lost in your sentence about whether your statement was somehow either incorrect or correct. My half-acknowledgement of the premise would to me indicate that neither absolute on such a statement could be "correct"?

The server--which is in that exact same monorepo you found, it being a monorepo and all ;P--can be easily compiled (or merely downloaded from the GitHub releases) and it doesn't take too much messing around with it to run it... as a developer (not an end user) You certainly don't need to be a "partner".

The client, also, will happily connect to you... if the user "opts our" of only using a list of people that happens to right now only include "partners". This is where I appreciate that the software--right now--has not a "walled" garden but a lightly-fenced garden: the difference is important, as anyone who wants to can go play outside the walls. This isn't like Apple or Facebook: the term "walled garden" simply doesn't apply.

The "half-acknowledgement" is, of course, that if not many people are playing outside the garden then you are likely going to be lonely. But as there is no wall, the project absolutely let's you sell bandwidth there... there just aren't many buyers. You see how that's different, right?

In some sense, being allowed to do something isn't a guarantee that it is a good idea. Imagine a world where anyone can make a restaurant, but almost all customers search for food on Yelp... is it true that only Yelp partners can sell food? No: anyone can sell food! But I appreciate--in that it isn't black and white--that it isn't exactly true that anyone can succeed at selling food.

And this is the rub, right? It is like the difference between a right to sell something and a guarantee of customers, which are related in a certain sense but aren't even slightly the same :(.

This is then why I wanted to ask after where you came to the quick idea that, with Orchid, one """can't become a "miner" (sell bandwidth) without becoming a partner""", as that statement isn't correct (but I appreciate neither is its opposite!!) in a way that makes me sad, as there are a lot of projects for which it is correct: where there are walls of authentication and permission or softwares that must be licensed... and I am very proud that Orchid isn't that?

That said, I feel like--with your emphasis on documentation (not in the passing way I mentioned it, which would include high-level discussion, but some expectation of "here is how to do it")--you are somewhat "moving the goalpost": instead of analyzing whether the software does or allows something, you are asking whether the project encourages something... and that is just very very different to me.

The reality is that--partner or not--you will probably be unhappy selling bandwidth as there isn't much traffic being purchased on the system right now, and I would rather not guide people down paths that will make them unhappy... particularly when I know that, if it were actually profitable, there would be a large cottage industry of third-party guides telling you how to do it ;P.

Re: What is Chia cryptocurrency and why is it bad news for hard drives?

#260
post #94

I just... do not understand how smart, even _brilliant_ people, the sort of people who know enough to make something like this, can look at Bitcoin... the waste, the way it has utterly failed to achieve what it set out to do[1], everything, and thinks, I know, I want to do that, but instead of blowing up the market for GPUs it'll be SSDs. Why? To get rich? It even seems doubtful to me that the people who developed Ch…

Many people keep suggesting Chia will cause the next storage shortage crisis the same way current crypto-currencies are with GPUs. This is understandable given that the article describes this is already starting to happen. However, everything right now is all due to _speculation_. When there is liquidity in the market and people actually know the value of the coin, the economics might look very different.

Why? Because by the very nature of storage, it is infinitely more profitable to farm only unused extra storage than it is to buy new storage specifically for farming. I'll follow with a more detailed explanation below.

Since the marginal cost of using extra space on a hard drive you already bought is near zero, this should theoretically drive the farming rewards for Chia so low that it's not economical to buy a hard drive specifically to farm Chia.

In contrast, consider compute. If I try to use extra cpu power on an average computer or server to mine bitcoin, compared to the high end GPUs and ASICs this extra amount of compute I have within my average computer is so small it would barely generate any rewards. Given that using more CPU also causes more power consumption, it also costs more.

So putting this together, due to the existence of specialized/more-performant hardware and the fact that using more CPU/GPU incurs a cost, most of the people buying high end GPUs (or definitely ASICs), are buying it primarily for mining. In contrast, with space, since it's always near free to use storage you already bought, and everyone is on a near-level playing field, the market is only profitable for those with no sunk costs. At least, that's just a theory.

Just a thought, but who knows. We'll see in time.

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