Labor shortage or terrible jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#251

Post by kristjansson » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #113

mywittyname wrote: post #20

I've long felt that many jobs paid unsustainably low wages. There are a lot of jobs where your net pay is below zero, long term, when you factor in the external costs associated with working, such as needing transportation. These jobs have been propped up by debt. It looks like the pandemic has put and end to this. Transportation costs have skyrocketed to such a degree that it's basically impossible for a poor person…

>I've long felt that many jobs paid unsustainably low wages. Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 * 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.

Your replies down thread indicate an extremely narrow interpretation of 'expenses' here, namely only those financial costs directly related to employment. Taking that interpretation, you're probably correct that nearly all jobs offer net-positive pay counting only the those inputs from the employee. You're right that someone with better off in immediate financial terms with basically any job than no job.

However, that's something other than the 'sustainable' wage in the GP comment, since that doesn't count costs of the labor input! Each of us has only so much labor to sell in a given month, and need to get enough in return to support, you know, continuing to live and sell our labor. Sure, being employed at wage that does not provide a basic level of dignity is less worse than being completely destitute, but it's a bit disingenuous to argue that being less-worse-off is 'sustainable'.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#252

Post by fuzzer37 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

I'm of the opinion that if you're business model relies on paying people so little that they don't even want to work for you, maybe that business _shouldn't_ be viable. No one is forcing you to own a business, just like no one is forced to work for you.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#253

Post by prepend » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

This seems pretty simple to me since the special unemployment insurance is up to $600/week[0] through at least July 31 it’s going to be hard to convince someone to work for less than that.

So if it’s a choice between $15/hour, steady to not work and $18/hour variable to bus tables or whatnot I’m not surprised that people choose the $15.

I expect this will be different once unemployment goes back to pre-covid and people are forced to make decisions.

Many jobs are terrible, I mean no one wants to be a janitor. So when finances allow me to not have to clean toilets and I can make a similar amount not doing it, any rational person will choose not to.

I’m really surprised that any low wage jobs are able to get folks to come into work right now.

It’s odd that the article doesn’t bring this up as the opportunity cost aspect seems like the most important factor in the “labor shortage.”

[0] https://www.dol.gov/coronavirus/unemployment-insurance

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#254

Post by nickff » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

nitwit005 wrote: post #245

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

> With such a small profit margin, arbitrarily raising everyone's wages is likely going to kill the business. There have been past minimum wage hikes, and that's not what has happened. The costs get passed onto consumers. Of course, there's presumably some hypothetical minimum wage that would be too high and destroy the industry, but the amounts being discussed in the US are below what other countries have already tr…

Your second sentence is debatable, as it appears that many European countries have high enough minimum total compensations (including benefits and other indirect costs) that unemployment is relatively high, and it can be very tough to get on the economic ladder.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#255

Post by ericbarrett » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

What about franchise fees? Independent fast food restaurants basically don’t exist in the U.S. anymore. An individual McDonalds may be scraping the boundary of profitability, but corporate had a net income of $1.5B last quarter[0], or about $7,500 per employee per quarter[1]. That’s net income, not revenue.

[0] https://corporate.mcdonalds.com/content/dam/gwscorp/assets/i...

[1] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/MCD/mcdonalds/numb...

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#256

Post by maybelsyrup » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

> This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem.

Good! I've been hearing about "the business side of the problem" my entire life -- lectured sternly about it, in many cases. All while few of the Adults and Experts - people with Real Power, in other words - dare even mention some of the topics laid out in the link.

> I'm just saying that both sides of the equation need to be examined, i.e. the plight of the worker AND the plight of the business.

There is no "plight of the business". There's a business that's making money, losing it, or breaking even. The people working there may feel the consequences, but a business cannot "suffer".

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#257

Post by inetknght » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #238

inetknght wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.* Wow can you be any more out of touch? Your comment is offensively innaccurate. $58/day = $1740 for 30 days Unhealthy cheap carbs for a single person... $200/month (chicken, beans, rice, milk, chee…

I'm glad I don't have to fit my expenses into a minimum wage budget, but some of your numbers are pretty high. I buy gas once every 2 or 3 weeks and spend $45 on a phone plan with 4 GB of LTE (US; I guess that can fit the definition of basically no internet). My car insurance (with collision and unlimited medical) is less than $500 for 6 months. I would probably balk at paying much more than $800 in rent. The rental…

> but some of your numbers are pretty high.

Cost of living across the US varies wildly. The numbers are pulled from my most recent billing cycle for Houston and partly extrapolated to minimum wage (which I am most definitely not, but have friends who are).

My rent is $1500/mo for 920sqft inside the 610 loop. The leasing office wanted $2000/mo for new contracts in October last year.

It's really hard to find places for $800 within a 30 minute drive of any office in Houston. All of my friends have the same problem. I'm looking to buy a home for a similar reason.

Living far enough out to have rent reduced to $800 is offset by increased amount of time driving and therefore increased costs in fuel. So I bought gas twice a month before the pandemic with a 5 minute drive to the office. When I lived 30 minutes out, I bought gas twice a week.

Car insurance depends a lot on vehicle, driver age, etc. $300/mo was quoted to some younger family last summer -- they were outraged because it was half-again their car payment. I pay $600/6-mo.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#258

Post by smabie » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 9:31 PM UTC

maybelsyrup wrote: post #256

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

> This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Good! I've been hearing about "the business side of the problem" my entire life -- lectured sternly about it, in many cases. All while few of the Adults and Experts - people with Real Power, in other words - dare even mention some of the topics laid out in the link. > I'm just saying that both sides of the equation need to be examined, i.e…

plight: "a dangerous, difficult, or otherwise unfortunate situation."

Pretty sure a business can have plight.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#259

Post by dcolkitt » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 9:32 PM UTC

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #189

unethical_ban wrote: post #21

Occasionally, Twitter provides some nice insights in digestible forms (of course, nuance gets stripped). I saw a post recently that said something like "We watch Star Trek and marvel at their post-scarcity world. We are living in a post-scarcity world now, but all the benefits are being funneled by wage slaves up to the 0.1%." Paraphrased. I was talking with a friend who mentioned that a local pizza place is offering…

To me, no education, no experience jobs are the norm. Does that restaurant pay incoming career food service staff a wage sufficient to raise a family on? A solid third of the households in the US take in under 50k/yr. More than half that are under 25k. I don't know about you, but 37k doesn't go far. Assuming 30% effective tax rate that's 2158/mo. 1 bed flat in my city $1400 Cell phone bill: $100 Home internet: $100 E…

30% is way to high an effective tax rate at that income. Below median earners pay effectively zero taxes with the EITC and standard deductible.

$400 is way too high for a car payment. You can get a great used compact for $10k. With decent credit that’ll run you $150/month.

$100 is way too high for home Internet. I pay $40/month for 100 mbps, which is more than enough for five decides to stream simultaneously.

$1400 is too high. A low earner should be saving money by getting a roommate. I can easily find rooms for rent in my medium COL metro for $700/month. Heck, I can find one bedroom houses for sale where the PITA mortgage is well below $1400.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#260

Post by TimPC » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 9:32 PM UTC

csours wrote: post #92

unethical_ban wrote: post #21

Occasionally, Twitter provides some nice insights in digestible forms (of course, nuance gets stripped). I saw a post recently that said something like "We watch Star Trek and marvel at their post-scarcity world. We are living in a post-scarcity world now, but all the benefits are being funneled by wage slaves up to the 0.1%." Paraphrased. I was talking with a friend who mentioned that a local pizza place is offering…

With apologies to William Gibson "The post-scarcity future is already here – it's just not very evenly distributed."

Average Income in the US is $68,703 which certainly doesn't pay a mortgage in most big cities. So I think post scarcity is a tad optimistic. If nothing else there is always going to be a shortage of non-apartment housing where people want to live.