Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because the rules are made by lawyers
By lobbyists*
Many of whom went to law school... come on
EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
251–260 of 538 posts
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#252Proctorio is on my red flag list. If any current or former employees of a flagged company apply for a job on my team I expect their reason for leaving to be for ethical reasons, or for them to tell me about how they had ethical problems with what the company was doing. If they don't I immediately remove them from the candidate pool.
I'm conflicted about this. I agree with you that I think working for this company and not having an ethical objection is a red flag. But the interview environment is fraught. Is it really obvious that no candidate would think "this question is a trap"? There's a lot of interview advice that says your answer to this question can only ever hurt you, so be as bland as possible. Some employers want compliant employees wh…
> There's a lot of interview advice that says your answer to this question can only ever hurt you, so be as bland as possible.
Seems like terrible advice to me. If someone gives me bland answers I'll assume they're a bland person.
> Some employers want compliant employees who don't rock the boat.
Good for them, I do. I want people who are willing to stand up for what is right and say "no".
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#253Proctorio is on my red flag list. If any current or former employees of a flagged company apply for a job on my team I expect their reason for leaving to be for ethical reasons, or for them to tell me about how they had ethical problems with what the company was doing. If they don't I immediately remove them from the candidate pool.
Ah yes, screw those people for... needing to pay the bills.
If they're applying for a new job it seems like that's exactly what they're trying to do.
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#254Earlier quoted context omitted.
When you've seen exam-sitting-for-hire in action, you believe it. Most students are honest and genuinely want to learn, and the few that are dishonest cause everyone to be subjected to this. It sucks for everyone, students and staff.
I think you would be surprised on the high percentage of students that will cheat, given the opportunity with as low risk profile such as remote learning.
My university had an honor system, proctors were explicitly not allowed in the room during the test except to make announcements. Worked well enough as far as I know. Cheating was dealt with harshly when reported.
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#255Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is the answer. No one wants to hear this answer because it means actual work for the teaching staff (compared to, say, automated scoring of multiple-choice tests), but it is, in fact, the answer.
> actual work for the teaching staff Actual work for the already incredibly underpaid, over-worked teaching staff. As the money dries up in university funding, teachers are stretched thinner and thinner. That forces them to rely more on automated testing instead of having the time to actually know more about their students' performance. That in turn makes it easier for students to cheat. The economics (as usual) are…
more likely, have TAs write the variations while paying them the state minimum wage. arguably a feature if that means you need to hire TAs. a lot of students need work-study as part of their financial aid package.
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#256Proctorio is on my red flag list. If any current or former employees of a flagged company apply for a job on my team I expect their reason for leaving to be for ethical reasons, or for them to tell me about how they had ethical problems with what the company was doing. If they don't I immediately remove them from the candidate pool.
I don't think that's entirely fair to the candidates. I don't know your stance on Proctorio and I'm not going to air dirty laundry to an effective stranger. And any company or hiring manager who tries to bait me into bad-mouthing a company I've worked at gets a red flag from me.
There's a difference between bad-mouthing your employer and discussing ethical issues that are public knowledge.
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#257Earlier quoted context omitted.
For what it's worth, at the school this happened at, UBC, Proctorio is now effectively banned, along with other similar "algorithmic" proctoring tools, and exams are no longer allowed to use it with some exceptions. They've moved to Lockdown Browser without the recording, and to Zoom proctoring. In my opinion, neither are particularly effective measures against cheating, and I'm sure they are trivially bypassable. Th…
This is silly. Make the exams open book and then the only thing you really need to worry about is the correct student taking the exam. If you're testing based on memorization of things in this day in age, then the course is useless.
Exactly - assessment methods that are difficult for the sake of being difficult benefit nobody. They’re only marginally more meaningful than FAANG interview questions.
Employers, students and society as a whole have all moved on; they want assessment to demonstrate that students can do what the course has taught them (known in the jargon as “alignment”), not memorise a bunch of facts that they can regurgitate on demand.
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#258Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm conflicted about this. I agree with you that I think working for this company and not having an ethical objection is a red flag. But the interview environment is fraught. Is it really obvious that no candidate would think "this question is a trap"? There's a lot of interview advice that says your answer to this question can only ever hurt you, so be as bland as possible. Some employers want compliant employees wh…
> There's a lot of interview advice that says your answer to this question can only ever hurt you, so be as bland as possible. Seems like terrible advice to me. If someone gives me bland answers I'll assume they're a bland person. > Some employers want compliant employees who don't rock the boat. Good for them, I do. I want people who are willing to stand up for what is right and say "no".
> Good for them, I do. I want people who are willing to stand up for what is right and say "no".
See, the problem is you think you're selecting for ethics when in reality you're just selecting for how easily they can read you and the rest of the room.
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#259There was a time when calculators were not allowed. The solution was that since people can always have access to calculators they should be allowed to use them. I think that should work, if a student can use a computer to answer a question he can always use a computer to answer that question. It should be encouraged to do so, the school should make an effort providing- and keeping the answers online and available for download.
Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd
#260Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is silly. Make the exams open book and then the only thing you really need to worry about is the correct student taking the exam. If you're testing based on memorization of things in this day in age, then the course is useless.
I would add some nuance to this view. For nearly every undergraduate course I agree - the ability of knowing where to look for resources in a particular subject matter, synthesizing the available information to solve a reasonably novel problem, and presenting the information in a coherent way is a skill/art that should be one of the primary goals of the education. For advanced degrees, though, I'm not so sure. I expe…
This is why PhD's typically have comprehensive exams. It varies (a lot!) by university and even department, but panel led oral exams are pretty common. At some places they are even open to the public (no pressure). These are distinct from a thesis defence, which happens at the end of your degree; they are likely to happen about a year in and are meant to ensure you have a solid background.
Overall I think an oral exam run by a skilled examiner is the best of all worlds, but it isn't practical for a section of 500 undergraduate students. It's quite doable for a seminar or manageable up to say 10-15 students, becomes difficult after that.