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PHP in 2021

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Re: PHP in 2021

#251

Post by thomaslord »

insaneirish wrote: post #30
busterarm wrote: post #2

PHP has been in a pretty good place since 7, IMO. These are some great developments. I would say that Laravel is an extremely high quality framework (on par with and even in some ways better than Rails) that nobody should be ashamed to use. It's unfortunate that the stink of old PHP is so powerful and that salaries are still lagging so far behind.

> I would say that Laravel is an extremely high quality framework (on par with and even in some ways better than Rails) that nobody should be ashamed to use. Never heard of Laravel. Decided to take a look. First thing the intro documentation says to do is install something called 'Docker Desktop'. I'm good, thanks. Why do I need Docker to play around with a web framework?

You don't, that's just the quickest/easiest way to get started. If you read slightly further, you'll get to the section for people who already have the dependencies installed directly: https://laravel.com/docs/8.x#installation-via-composer

Re: PHP in 2021

#252

Post by joelbluminator »

zozbot234 wrote: post #239
joelbluminator wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So not sure I'm following, the php solution can handle huge traffic at a low cost with a conmparable feature set? How do they achieve that then? Taking a look at phpBB it looks like they are not using a framework (e.g https://github.com/phpbb/phpbb/blob/master/phpBB/posting.php ). This is good for performance but pretty shitty for an OSS proeject, anyone looking to contribute here needs to start from scratch. Discour…

> This is good for performance but pretty shitty for an OSS proeject I don't see how. The repository seems to be quite active and has plenty of current pull requests.

The fact that there's no framework, you basically start learning the new codebase from scratch. With Rails I have a good chance of fixing a bug just by knowing the structure.

Re: PHP in 2021

#253

Post by klibertp »

slver wrote: post #119
ashton314 wrote: post #66

Before you call me a troll, know that I worked with PHP for two+ years maintaining both legacy codebases and writing new code with Laravel. My question is: why would anyone want to start something new with PHP in 2021? Is there anything that it does better than any other language/ecosystem? I feel like the community is full of (but not exclusively composed of—there are some gems like Caleb Porzio who write good stuff…

I'd love to debate the use of PHP vs. Ruby and Elixir, but your arguments basically are: - The community is full of people who just care about hacking something together. - Ruby/Elixir are fantastic, developer friendly, and have solid foundations. The first happens with every popular scripting platform. Is JS community full of PhDs? The second is highly subjective. Ruby is problematic, because it's supported by one f…

> Elixir is a niche dialect of a niche language (Erlang).

Nitpick: Elixir is not a dialect of Erlang. It doesn't even compile to Erlang, but directly to the BEAM bytecode.

Erlang and Elixir are very different languages. Think of it as Java and Groovy. Erlang is old, battle-tested, explicit and verbose to a fault (which stops being a fault when you try to maintain a decade+ old code) and is used mainly for writing large systems with very specific requirements. Elixir is younger, tries to be less verbose, adds magic completely absent from Erlang, and is intended to be used more like a traditional scripting language in addition to also covering the Erlang use case.

Re: PHP in 2021

#254

Post by robinhood »

ashton314 wrote: post #66

Before you call me a troll, know that I worked with PHP for two+ years maintaining both legacy codebases and writing new code with Laravel. My question is: why would anyone want to start something new with PHP in 2021? Is there anything that it does better than any other language/ecosystem? I feel like the community is full of (but not exclusively composed of—there are some gems like Caleb Porzio who write good stuff…

The ecosystem is what makes the huge difference, especially thanks to Laravel.

So much documentation everywhere. So many helpful resources.

I've tried to learn Rails back in the days (ie 7 years ago) and was shocked by how poor the entire documentation is. I subscribed to Railscast but it hasn't been maintained for years.

The PHP ecosystem, however, is incredibly alive.

Re: PHP in 2021

#255

Post by cies »

pxtail wrote: post #230
cies wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Full of quirks (there's a whole subreddit for that /r/lolphp), not OO to the bone (more like tagged on), hellish to read, no proper FP stuff. You may call people categorizing PHP as legacy "elitist", but big shops that use a lot of PHP are heavily investing in other tech (yes I look at FB). > it's good language to deliver products. Never said it was not. But it is not, anno 2021, a good language to start a new projec…

> It seems you have identified a lot with that language, and I see this often. Usually this happens to people who have little experience with other languages. The defend it like it is their home. My take on this topic comes from extremely pragmatic and focused on results angle: delivering product. Not sure what about 2 sentences I wrote allows you to make broad assumptions about my experience, I don't feel need or de…

> Not sure what about 2 sentences I wrote allows you to make broad assumptions about my experience

That you defend PHP like it is your home. We can deliver a product in Perl, but it's a bad choice these days. Unless... someone is reaaaaly well acquainted with Perl and little else.

Hence I suspect that's whats going on here. As I've seen this happen many times before, also outside of programming.

> allows you to make broad assumptions

I voiced my suspicion based on your defensiveness. That's all.

Re: PHP in 2021

#256

Post by kijin »

jfrunyon wrote: post #87
kijin wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, PHP has always been kinda "serverless". You just point the PHP interpreter at a file, and it runs the script contained in the file!

That's how literally anything which is "executable" works. You just point the interpreter (kernel, ld-linux, php, python, ...) at a file, and it runs the file.

Exactly, and PHP brings this simple intuitive behavior to the web. You just point your browser at a .php file, and the server runs the file for you.

Re: PHP in 2021

#257

Post by joelbluminator »

gremlinsinc wrote: post #198
joelbluminator wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But almost no one writes php alone. Maybe hobbyists or Wordpress users. When we talk about actual applications that talk to a db - people use frameworks. Is deploying a Laravel app so much cheaper or different than a Rails app? Yes if all you need a wordpress website PHP is obviously the way to go. If you're an app developer PHP loses this edge quite quickly. Also I'm not sure an ftp setup is easier than Heroku.

You "CAN" upload laravel to bluehost or any shared host and it will work, you may need to cut a few bits, or use external services for redis/sqs/etc if you want to use those things, or you could just use file/database for sessions/caching/etc. I mean I started laravel on shared hosting, why did I use laravel for most of my career? Because the job I was hired for was to build a custom CRM for a book business, I was le…

Shopify is Ruby based btw... But I'm not taking anything from PHP, it's a sound career choice with lots of big platforms (Wordpress/Magento). Just not sure I understand the deployment story. Deploying Laravel should be as easy or hard as deploying Rails.

Re: PHP in 2021

#258

Post by joelbluminator »

nickjj wrote: post #215
joelbluminator wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But almost no one writes php alone. Maybe hobbyists or Wordpress users. When we talk about actual applications that talk to a db - people use frameworks. Is deploying a Laravel app so much cheaper or different than a Rails app? Yes if all you need a wordpress website PHP is obviously the way to go. If you're an app developer PHP loses this edge quite quickly. Also I'm not sure an ftp setup is easier than Heroku.

> But almost no one writes php alone. Maybe hobbyists or Wordpress users. What about that one guy who made https://remoteok.io/ using a single PHP file with no frameworks or libraries? According to this live chart https://remoteok.io/open he made $88,000 last month from it alone with a 90%+ profit margin. But more importantly it's a site that technically functions well and looks appealing. End users really don't care…

I don't know what this proves. Most people who talk to a db and grow their app will go for a framework, are you disputing that fact?

Re: PHP in 2021

#259

Post by [deleted] »

joelbluminator wrote: post #108
JamesDeepDown wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the abject failure of Discourse. If it had been written in PHP then it would have completely replaced all current forum software. But the devs there hate PHP and went for a modern stack which is all but impossible to install except for tech professionals. In other words, they chose a tech stack which suited them as developers, and not which suited the end users of the software. End users love PHP because you…

You mean simply running Discourse (a Rails app) is so complicated no one wants to do it? And if it was simply PHP boom business would have been booming ? I find that a bit hard to believe.

[deleted]

Re: PHP in 2021

#260

Post by 411111111111111 »

capableweb wrote: post #157
zozbot234 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can do this with one PHP file , one a super cheap hosting , with code that is simple and clear. This. PHP is basically Functions-as-a-Service over commoditized virtual hosting. Maybe we need a toolchain that can transpile down to PHP, starting from more common languages with better development workflow.

> with better development workflow What languages have better development workflow? I'm myself biased towards repl-driven development with Clojure, but for example Rust's or Go's development workflow is a lot worse than PHP. PHP: write file to disk, reload webpage/run curl Rust/Go: write file to disk, compile file, run binary, reload webpage/run curl The popularity of PHP is not hard to understand when it comes to ea…

honestly, that argument died when Hot Reload became a thing ... something like 10 years ago? you dont reload pages, they automagically reload whenever you either save or the compilation finished.

unless you want to check your pure JSON api itself... but why arent you writing a test making sure of your behaviour there? its literally both less effort and assures you of the correct behaviour in the future as well.

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