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Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee

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Re: Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee

#251

Post by NamTaf »

dmingod666 wrote: post #211
forgingahead wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is precisely why it's unlikely any regulation will occur to stop this at the source. As long as American customers are happy to bend over to shady business practices by dominant American businesses, the rest of the world will keep experiencing the knock-on effects of this behaviour.

In your country if you get into a yearly contract to rent a place and then break the contract in 2 months. Are there any consequences for the person breaking the contract?

Absolutely. In Australia, the Critical Information Summary will detail the contract cancellation fee and the total minimnum cost (i.e. if you cancel it immediately after the cooling-off period) is explicitly stated right next to the cost that the company really wants to display.

So in the case of $1000/mo rent, and a 1 month cancellation fee, the minimum total cost will be displayed as $2000. If it is the total remainder of the contract, then it will be displayed as $12000.

It's not that there's no consequences, it's that the consumer is clearly and without the need to navigate dark patterns made visible of those consequences.

Re: Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee

#252

Post by laumars »

dmingod666 wrote: post #211
forgingahead wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is precisely why it's unlikely any regulation will occur to stop this at the source. As long as American customers are happy to bend over to shady business practices by dominant American businesses, the rest of the world will keep experiencing the knock-on effects of this behaviour.

In your country if you get into a yearly contract to rent a place and then break the contract in 2 months. Are there any consequences for the person breaking the contract?

In the U.K. we actually have had these kinds of cases go to court and as a result those charges have to be presented clearly before the user has signed the contract. Some places even make you sign that specific clause to evidence that you’ve understood it. So there’s no chance of anyone engaging in a contract with termination charges without them understanding what those charges will be.

Re: Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee

#253

Post by cbmuser »

sherry-sherry wrote: post #219
Meph504 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes month to month after 12 months, it doesn't stop, but I grant you sure they could make their own deals sound less appealing, but without a law forcing them too, they aren't going to. This right below the button you press to start your subscription. By clicking "Agree and subscribe," you agree: You will be charged US$52.99 (plus tax) monthly and at the end of your one-year term, your subscription will automatic…

This could be a country specific thing but Adobe’s Australian site does not say that at all, quite the opposite. It doesn’t even state the monthly price in the terms, just refers to them. > “ Your subscription will automatically renew annually without notice until you cancel. You authorize us to store your payment method(s) and to automatically charge your payment method(s) every month until you cancel. We will autom…

> This could be a country specific thing but Adobe’s Australian site does not say that at all, quite the opposite.

Nope, perfectly normal business practice and not even unethical.

Please learn and understand how contracts work. They are a legal _obligation_ and you cannot just unilaterally change the conditions after signing a contract without provoking a contract penalty.

It’s really just how contracts work, everywhere in the world.

Re: Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee

#254

Post by Loic »

vertex-four wrote: post #218
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't have to do math in my head that's +x% sales or state tax. That type of practice just isn't acceptable anywhere else. Oblig: sales/retail taxes in the US vary city-by-city. While just like the rest of the world: US companies put their MSRP on products - but it would be unfair to expect retailers to charge the MSRP and eat the tax themselves because some areas have zero sales tax but others have a 10% tax. Th…

I’ve lived in the UK and Germany and it’s incredibly rare that I’ve seen prices printed on the goods themselves. There’s a label on the shelf with the price. Even when there is a price on the box (usually much smaller stores - never supermarkets), the label on the shelf is often a different price.

To complement, in the EU, if you have two prices, one on the shelf and one on the box, the cheapest one is the right one. The only goods where prices are printed on the "box" are not in boxes, they are books or clothes.

When items get individual prices, they are usually small sticker prices and effectively only in small shops or discount prices in bigger stores.

Re: Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee

#255

Post by culturestate »

paxys wrote: post #168
culturestate wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if a debt goes to collections that ends up on your credit report. It's not like you can just ignore it forever. I obviously don't endorse this, but in the US you absolutely can ignore it forever as long as it isn't student loan debt. Anything else large enough to sue for can be discharged through bankruptcy (which is comically simple in some states), and debts below that[1] will fall off your report after 7 years.…

Tanking your credit has very real consequences if, say, you need a home loan in the next 7 years. You'll end up paying for that $100 "savings" x 1000 in the long run.

If you're employing "ignore it until it goes away" as a debt mitigation strategy you probably aren't in a position to be buying a house (or a car, or whatever) any time soon. Having a 400 FICO score is not a "real consequence" to anyone who's in this situation.

At any rate, I'm just pointing out that it's a thing you can do, not advocating it as one you should do.

As an aside, I think a lot of the HN audience would be surprised at just how many people in America do take advantage of this. Being constantly broke really changes your decision making paradigm.

Re: Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee

#256

Post by cbmuser »

encryptluks2 wrote: post #51
brnt wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this work legally? I see this sort of comment quite often, but in my jurisdiction the money I owe is bound by the terms of the contract, not by the ability of the company to debit my card. If I would do this, companies can and will send letters with the amount due and eventually may escalate to authorities or a bailiff.

What authorities? In the US usually violating a contract is a civil matter. Unless you're a rich corporation that accuses people of fraud for violating your ToS like some companies do then sometimes the federal agencies get involved which basically protect big business and charge people with crimes that the little guy will never be able to do the reverse against a company.

> What authorities?

In Germany, the creditor can just go to court and they will send a bailiff to get the money from you.

If someone legally owes you money and they don‘t pay, you can always have the court send a bailiff for you.

You don’t have to be a multi-billion Dollar company to have the right (not privilege) to have your debitors pay their debt.

Re: Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee

#257

Post by dorkwood »

fastball wrote: post #203
dorkwood wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"See more details" isn't the primary call to action --"buy now" is. If you click "buy now", you're taken to a page that doesn't show the three options side-by-side, and if you're not paying attention you could miss the new "annual plan" text that's been added.

I'm firmly in the "if you don't pay attention when purchasing something it's your own damn fault" camp.

How much deception are you ok with before it becomes an issue? Would it be ok if the second screen was also missing the "annual plan" text, and it only became visible on the payment-confirmation screen? What if was only visible in the fine print at the bottom of the page? Where do you draw the line?

Re: Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee

#258

Post by sherry-sherry »

cbmuser wrote: post #253
sherry-sherry wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This could be a country specific thing but Adobe’s Australian site does not say that at all, quite the opposite. It doesn’t even state the monthly price in the terms, just refers to them. > “ Your subscription will automatically renew annually without notice until you cancel. You authorize us to store your payment method(s) and to automatically charge your payment method(s) every month until you cancel. We will autom…

> This could be a country specific thing but Adobe’s Australian site does not say that at all, quite the opposite. Nope, perfectly normal business practice and not even unethical. Please learn and understand how contracts work. They are a legal _obligation_ and you cannot just unilaterally change the conditions after signing a contract without provoking a contract penalty. It’s really just how contracts work, everywh…

Contracts that involve money over time should state the exact amount you are obligated to pay in total, including any and all fees. Adobe does not currently do that. In Australia at least, they can renew your annual contract at a higher rate without notice. That's not OK with me.

The fact that you defend this practice shows where our ethics differ. I do not know how you can justify: A company signing you up for another year at a higher rate without telling you.

Re: Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee

#259

Post by pacifika »

lolinder wrote: post #113
hellbannedguy wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Digital products should be exempt from cancellation fees period. Adobe lost me at Lightroom 1. I bought it, and was happy for a year. They then got cute with subscriptions, and honestly overly complicated software. I believe most product/services should not have late fees, or cancellation fees. Every business I have ever worked at used them as steady income. In college I managed a mini storage. The owner told me he w…

Adobe offers annual pricing that is cheaper than the monthly pricing. How do you suggest they avoid the cancellation fee for annual plans while still offering a discount? Would that not effectively turn their annual price into the de facto monthly price, if people could cancel at will with no repercussions?

Pay for the year up front like Dropbox and App Store subscriptions

Re: Adobe charges subscription cancellation fee

#260

Post by zimpenfish »

cbmuser wrote: post #232
d110af5ccf wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they gave you a discount on that basis! How is it ethical to receive a discount from someone and then go back on your word?! They also offer a full price monthly option (ie no cancellation fee) if that's what you want. The "cancellation fee" is because you are breaking a contract which you agreed to in order to receive a discount . If you are actually given a meaningful choice (which I feel quite strongly tha…

> The "cancellation fee" is because you are breaking a contract which you agreed to in order to receive a discount. Exactly. And it’s perfectly legal and practiced by a lot of companies, even the public transport company in Berlin does that. There seem to be a lot of people in this discussion on HN who seem very inexperienced in signing business contracts.

> There seem to be a lot of people in this discussion on HN who seem very inexperienced in signing business contracts.

But that would also be the case for most of the general public, no? Are you suggesting that people should have experience in signing business contracts (and contracts with a predatory company, at that) before it's considered safe for them to buy software?

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