Early-Retirement Update • Hacker News Board

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#251

Post by kelnos » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 8:54 PM UTC

californical wrote: post #166

kelnos wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but just imagine for a moment that working a job doesn't make you happy. Consider that most employment arrangements aren't all that flexible. You can't just suddenly decide to disappear for two months because you feel like it, whenever you want, and expect there to be a job waiting for you when you get back. This extends all the way down into little things. Maybe I'd like to go for a walk right now, but I can't b…

I get where you’re coming from, but getting to a place of being truly retired with enough money to live indefinitely, and account for most disasters like the one in this post, is much more difficult. Especially with healthcare in the US. I’m not saying having enough money to retire forever isn’t better. I get that you have even more options. But why not also be semi-FI all along the way and afford yourself those thin…

Oh, absolutely agree. But everyone needs to find that balance for themselves. For some people that balance may truly involve working themselves to near death in their 20s and 30s so they can retire with a more-than-comfortable lifestyle. That's not for me, but I see no problem with someone doing that if that's what they truly want.

I'm lucky that I'll be able to retire soon and still be financially secure against all but the worst medical disasters (agree that the US sucks in this regard), medical disasters that would likely bankrupt me even if I was working (and would likely mean I couldn't work anymore anyway). I know this isn't possible for many people in the FIRE crowd, let alone most people in general. I've also been lucky that I've been able to travel a lot in my 30s and a decent amount in my 20s, despite working hard for most of it. So it's not like I've been all-work-and-no-play up until now; it's a balance I've been mostly happy with (certainly with some exceptions), but I know others might want a different balance (in either direction), and that's ok.

Just a bit on "enjoying work": I really want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. For the most part I enjoy and love the work I do, but overall I don't really enjoy "the job". I don't enjoy the meetings, the process that caters to the lowest common denominator, the politics, the fight to get things done the way I think they should get done. There are definitely some aspects of my current work that I probably couldn't do without all the other stuff (because they require a large organization with considerable financial resources). But there's a lot of it that I could do on my own, or (for example) in a small group of people working on an open source project. Retirement for me doesn't mean I stop being a software developer; it means I stop developing software on an employer's terms, and stop doing it for a profit motive. And if I get temporarily (or even permanently) tired of it, I can simply choose to do something else, on a moment's notice, without financial consequences. I'm not sure if this is the popular definition, but to me "retirement" means I do whatever I want -- including "work" -- without a care toward how it affects my income, and with the ability to shift my priorities on a dime.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#252

Post by npsimons » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 8:56 PM UTC

bityard wrote: post #59

varispeed wrote: post #23

This is something I cannot understand. Why would you want to retire so early? I think that would impact my mental health negatively. I just love to work and I couldn't care less about FI. I mean it's nice to have money, but this will sound cliche it will not buy you happiness. However, it is certainly better to cry in a luxury apartment than under a bridge to your dog.

My situation, as someone attempting financial independence: I don't mind work, what I mind is someone else telling me what I have to work on and when it needs to be done. FI will put the ball in my court. Once I have enough passive income to cover my family's living expenses, _I_ get to choose what I work on, even if it makes little to no money. But of course I will sometimes choose to work on things that will genera…

I'll second all of this: if I wasn't getting paid for working on the projects at my day job, I wouldn't work on them.

I've got tons of ideas and cool projects I want to work on (some I've even made decent progress on in my spare time), but I don't know if they'd be profitable, nor do I want to worry about that. I just want to code on stuff I like.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#253

Post by draw_down » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 8:57 PM UTC

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #140

AlwaysRock wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. I'd love to have a basic level of income and then be able to dither around with random jobs. I'd love to be a bartender for 6 months, work in a bookstore for 6 months, become a carpenter for a year or two. I'd probably feel differently if I actually had a trust fund since my upbringing would be different but it does feel stifling that in order to have a financially rewarding career one has to stay on a…

You can do that now. Why not? Bartenders make okay money, and you wouldn’t have to compete with like-minded people like if there was BI.

Health insurance

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#254

Post by mfer » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 8:58 PM UTC

GordonS wrote: post #137

eagsalazar2 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just FIRE people, but 99% of all retirees at any age end up doing nothing of note with their time. But, and I think you aren't saying otherwise, this is also true of everyone who still has to work, while they are working. Your job is just the thing you have to do (if you are lucky you actually enjoy it). Bottom line, most people don't actually have a purpose or strong passions in their lives. Being retired young…

> Not just FIRE people, but 99% of all retirees at any age end up doing nothing of note with their time. If you spend some years just chilling and and are actually happy, then sure, why not. But there are so many retired people who do nothing, and are not happy. For example, my mother, my mother and father in law, my other father in law, my grandmother - all retired, and all do absolutely nothing but watch TV and moa…

I used to work for a company that had a newsletter. In the newsletter they listed deaths. There was a common theme that people would generally either die shortly after retiring or a long time after. Talking with some of the folks near retirement I learned that people who didn't find things to do generally died shortly after retirement.

Basically, we live for work and when many people retire they loose the thing to live for and die. It's sad.

Long ago I learned to not live to work. I work but I have so much more to life... retirement is just a point in time where I don't need to earn income to live any longer and I can have more choice in what I do.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#255

Post by abraxas » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 8:58 PM UTC

TuringNYC wrote: post #114

jdavis703 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what the definition of rich here is, but people in the 10% of income earners most definitely still need health insurance and suffer from illness. For example, my psych meds would be $1500 a month without insurance. Even on a software engineer salary, that’s quite a hit.

>> ...still need health insurance...without insurance.. I think the point is that even with health insurance you can be wiped out. I dont think any reasonable definition of FI/RE would suggest being without health insurance. The thing is that in a small % of cases, even with health insurance, you get one bad examiner, one by-the-books administrator who denies coverage for something, and you're done for.

Some of those dudes (eg MMM) do go without health insurance. Personally I think they are nuts unless they are OK to pack it in the moment their appendix bursts.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#256

Post by munificent » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 9:00 PM UTC

silicon2401 wrote: post #204

dimmke wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had friends with trust funds, who just seem to dither around in life. "Making music" they never release. Picking up little "pass the time" jobs. And these are people that aren't living "leanFIRE" It seems like such a nihilistic way to live. You're just floating along the stream of life. Things worked out for you, but you have no further passion or inclination to improve the world? No problems you could set yours…

> "Making music" they never release. Picking up little "pass the time" jobs. And these are people that aren't living "leanFIRE" > It seems like such a nihilistic way to live. You're just floating along the stream of life. Things worked out for you, but you have no further passion or inclination to improve the world? No problems you could set yourself to solving? You seem to assume or take for granted that releasing m…

I think it's important to separate out the moral and psychological components here.

I agree with you that if your bills are paid and you're harming no one, then you have no moral obligation to do anything more than sit on your butt and play videogames. It's your life.

At the same time, humans are a social species. We have evolved brains and intrinsic motivation reward systems that only give us the real deep kinds of life-satisfaction emotions if we are putting real effort into something that we find to be meaningful in ways that help our perceived family or tribe.

There are of course outliers who can spend indefinite days just binge-watching TV happy as a clam. But most of us are wired like border collies. If we don't have a herd to take care of some real reason to get out of bed in the morning, we go crazy.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#257

Post by pcglue » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 9:02 PM UTC

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #187

pcglue wrote: post #184

2.8M nut, about 50/50 in regular/retirement accounts. I'm mid 40's, married with two pre-teen kids, annual expenses of $80K, live in HCOL area (Southern California). Would you FIRE in this situation? Would you take a year long hiatus? As much as I would like to FIRE, I can't/won't, even though the "numbers" say I probably could. But seriously considering a months to year long career break/sabbatical/hiatus, because I…

Another approach to FIRE that I think is actually more fulfilling is to gradually reduce working hours until "retired". For example, explore a position that lets you work 4 days a week and take Mondays or Fridays off. Later, switch to part time or contracting 6 months on 6 months off. I don't personally think gap years will be very fulfilling unless it's something like a whole family 1 year vacation where you all go…

I would absolutely love to find a software position with 24-32 hour week, but I have not heard of such a thing, short of going out on your own and freelancing. No employer I know of (in software field, I don't want to go work retail) would consider allowing employees to work part time.

I have considered contracting or even freelancing too, but I've been a W2 worker my entire career. I'd have to look into how to do this.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#258

Post by thesuitonym » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 9:03 PM UTC

dimmke wrote: post #102

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #68

I had to quit reading any FIRE (financial independence, early retirement) blogs because they were full of people headed down this same path: Extreme frugality, bare minimum savings, assuming their lifestyle would never change and nothing would ever go wrong. Retiring at 30 sounds great, but no one's life goes exactly to plan for next the 30-40 years until traditional retirement age. People change, expectations evolve…

I've had friends with trust funds, who just seem to dither around in life. "Making music" they never release. Picking up little "pass the time" jobs. And these are people that aren't living "leanFIRE" It seems like such a nihilistic way to live. You're just floating along the stream of life. Things worked out for you, but you have no further passion or inclination to improve the world? No problems you could set yours…

>Things worked out for you, but you have no further passion or inclination to improve the world? No problems you could set yourself to solving?

And why should they? I'm no fan of trust fund babies who coast by on life, but really, why does anyone have to justify their lives by doing something to improve the world? What are you and I accomplishing right now?

Maybe it's just the severe burnout talking, but I for one would love to just stop everything and exist for a while with no tangible goals or requirements of me. Besides that, what good is a person who did the leanFIRE thing really supposed to do? The whole idea is to live cheaply, they don't have a lot of money to invest in making the world better. They have all the time in the world, sure, but if you're putting 40+ hours into "making the world better" (Whatever that means to you) then are you really retired? Or are you just doing the same thing as everyone else but living a much more meager life for the sake of it.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#259

Post by JustSomeNobody » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 9:04 PM UTC

lupire wrote: post #179

ricardobayes wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well someone spending 30k in Massachusetts living in a rental is got to be living extremely frugally. Then the woman had enough of the pennypinching. I see this so often in my circle - all the missed eating out and having fun is ultimately spent on marriage counseling and divorce lawyers.

Divorce is better than an unhappy marriage with someone who doesn't share values.

Even better is don't marry that person to begin with. Let them go off and enjoy their life with someone they're better suited to share life with.

Re: Early-Retirement Update

#260

Post by CryingSofa » Mon, Mar 22, 2021, 9:05 PM UTC

tartoran wrote: post #241

RankingMember wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not just FIRE people, but 99% of all retirees at any age end up doing nothing of note with their time. This is exactly why I think FIRE is a great thought exercise even if you don't actually care to do it. Given enough money to live for the rest of your life without the need for a job, what would you do with your time?

I don't see FIRE as literal retirement but as 'taking the bull by the horns' in terms of doing what you really are passionate about without having to worry you'd end up old and destitute. If I could FIRE I'd still do software development but I wouldn't do boring digital plumbing work and go through corporate cringe culture. And no, right now I could not do that because I have responsibilities that need me to slave aw…

This is mostly nitpicking: What you describe is the idea of FI (financial independence), no RE (retire early). In my impression, this is actually what by far the most FIRE-achievers turn into sooner or later (well-known examples: chooseFI, mad fientist, MMM). Or maybe the retired ones don't talk about it on the internet...