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Justice at Spotify

unionofmusicians.org

251–260 of 405 posts

Re: Justice at Spotify

#251

The model should be like Medium. Allocate peoples monthly membership in accordance to their listens. If one month I listen to 100 streams of Bob Dylan and thats it, then he should get my entire $7.00 instead of just a few cents for my small amount of streams. https://qz.com/1660465/the-way-spotify-and-apple-music-pays-...

This seems almost too simple & good to be true. The counter points in the linked article mention that its too "computationally expensive" to calculate the payments, and the additional management costs could outweigh the benefit to smaller artists... how could that possible be true?

It's simply not true. The whole business model of Spotify is that of any other internet business, selling a zero-marginal-cost good for a subscription fee. It would be more complicated to implement a per-user breakdown, and maybe slightly more expensive to run that analytics pipeline, but at scale there's no way the additional management costs would outweigh the benefit to smaller artists. The cost of that more advanced analytics job is going to be absorbed over the entire user base to the point where it effectively costs nothing in aggregate. The real counter point is probably that it was either easier to implement the current solution (from an engineering standpoint this is true, it's much easier to aggregate and scale their payment pipeline once per-geo-region) and there has been no push for change, or it favors larger artists and labels who have the bargaining power with Spotify.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#252
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems almost too simple & good to be true. The counter points in the linked article mention that its too "computationally expensive" to calculate the payments, and the additional management costs could outweigh the benefit to smaller artists... how could that possible be true?

It's one of the demands, the "user-centric" model. It's mostly because the major record labels (who have the top artists) might see a reduction of revenue. But even that was disproved in a recent french study: https://cnm.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/CNM_UCPS_SyntheseF...

Is there a translation of this report anywhere?

Re: Justice at Spotify

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My scenario is not one of power imbalance, it is that I simply cannot create enough economic value doing it to make a living, and I have no right to change anyone else's rules to accommodate for that fact. I cannot make you a bookshelf cheaper than you can buy one at IKEA. At my software developer rate a Billy Bookcase would cost you $1000. It's probably safe to say you aren't going to "stop whining" and pay that. Bu…

Your example is a little specious in that a bookcase is very different from a song. The production of one has huge economies of scale, whereas a song doesn't. I agree that producing things competitively is important to improve overall efficiency, but with the music industry you really have a small cartel of massive labels dictating the terms for everyone else (ie. engaging in massively anti-competitive behavior). It…

> small cartel of massive labels dictating the terms for everyone else

Only for those who sign with them. So this brings the question as what's stopping these musicians to make music independently and market using internet along the way avoiding these labels. It is not even the case that music can be listened only via monopolistic mobile app stores.

I have used small independent service providers for tax filing, lawn mowing, cleaning and myriad other services by finding at internet. They are not backed by big corporate chains. Why music has to come from big labels.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#254
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me sad to time and time again learn that the low prices of services I love are unsustainable and instead subsidized by treating someone unfairly downstream. I wish I could be told what the ethical price for something is and I might actually pay it. And if that price is too high, then maybe that service shouldn't exist in the first place.

Wait - how are you responsible for the fact that the artists sign away their rights to shitty big labels that take the majority of the money that work generates? How are you responsible for dumb decisions musicians make?

There was time before streaming that artists absolutely needed record labels and that was the set of circumstances under which they signed deals with record labels. Before Youtube and streaming services record labels provided distribution of your product to local markets as well as promotion of that product in local markets both in stores and on radio. The overwhelming majority of the big 3 records label's catalogs are from that era. How exactly does that constitute "dumb decisions musicians make?" Your logic is absurd and seems to predicated on somehow being able to predict the future.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. Maybe spotify should look like an app store with fees in the 30% range at the top end (shopify/apple/steam). Their role is very similar: distribution and discovery. They probably could wi points giving better payouts per stream to smaller artists too, like steam does. Hopefully competition will force it down too (eg epic vs steam vs apple). We might need open access to back catalogues and not exclusive…

The App Store for music exists many times over and users (including myself) prefer a lower cost streaming model. There is simply too much cheap or free music out there now for me to value it at iTunes singles prices.

Of course, and users would prefer completely free music over cheap music too. That doesn't mean it's sustainable, though.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My scenario is not one of power imbalance, it is that I simply cannot create enough economic value doing it to make a living, and I have no right to change anyone else's rules to accommodate for that fact. I cannot make you a bookshelf cheaper than you can buy one at IKEA. At my software developer rate a Billy Bookcase would cost you $1000. It's probably safe to say you aren't going to "stop whining" and pay that. Bu…

Your example is a little specious in that a bookcase is very different from a song. The production of one has huge economies of scale, whereas a song doesn't. I agree that producing things competitively is important to improve overall efficiency, but with the music industry you really have a small cartel of massive labels dictating the terms for everyone else (ie. engaging in massively anti-competitive behavior). It…

> The production of one has huge economies of scale, whereas a song doesn't.

Actually, now that we're digital, the economies of scale of music are similar to software, in that they are massive (and Spotify is a key enabler of that).

> It seems weird to me that your pro-market ideology leads you to support what (to me) seems to be more or less wage-fixing for a labor supplier (musicians)

Musicians have been largely entrepreneurial for centuries. The advent of physical media and distribution control enabled them to form these cartels, and extract rents to enable luxurious "rockstar" lifestyles for a select few. There is now far more opportunity for success and distribution without labels than there has been since they started.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, ignoring all other costs isn't great. Their revenue per subscriber is also substantively lower - including free users, discounted EDU users, and family memberships. Excluding free users, it's probably ~$5 per user. That being said, Apple Music pays .75p/stream, Tidal is 1.25p/stream. They can probably figure it out.

If they cannot pay the artists more, a long-term freemium plan might not be a great business model then. If free users are seriously cutting into profits, should they change the free plan to a limited free trial? I was around in the 80s 90s and we didn't really have free cassettes and CDs and radio paid studios & artists with ad revenue. Spotify is well known enough now that it could be argued an unending free tier m…

Perhaps the dynamics have changed since you had to shop for music in physical stores, and purchase it in hour-long increments.

I certainly play more music now than when I had to change the tape, but without the ritual and the intent, I listen a lot less. This changes my value from streaming over simply not having to store my music library locally.

It doesn't cost an artist more to be played more, but it does cost the streaming service. This may bring more casual listening and help some artists, and "underpay" someone who's more famous and would get the bulk of the first-song play that comes from intent. I don't think it's "wrong" but it may be the wrong fit for any given artist.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#258
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your bringing up another issue entirely. What do you think about the unionization effort?

> Your bringing up another issue entirely. That's the poster's modus operandi here: he doesn't miss an opportunity to advertise his two favorite topics – abolishment of intellectual property and his own whitespace-based data notation – whether it's on-topic or not.

Aloha anonymous coward,

The correct term is #ImaginaryProperty

Yours truly, Breck Yunits

Re: Justice at Spotify

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to one source [1], Spotify users stream on average 25 hours a month. Assuming an average song is 3 minutes [2], that's 500 streams per month. Going with the $9.99 per month rate, users pay about $0.02 per stream. Currently, the artists see only $0.0038 per stream, or less than 1/5th of what Spotify makes. I think that with a 50% profit margin, Spotify should be very happy. Of course, it's not that easy / st…

The other issue that has been raised a number of times is that I believe the revenue is still divided up based on overall listens across the platform, which means it's dominated by artists who feature heavily in popular playlists and automation-driver radio/recommendations. These listens are often passive and should not be considered as valuable as those of someone listens only a few hours a month, but spends all of…

If there's two groups of people, one who listens to pop music for 10 hours a month and one who listens who indie artists for 20 hours a month (which could easily be the case if their recommended playlists are mostly indie artists as mine is), then switching to the model you propose would reduce how much money indie artists make, right?

It seems more fair to me that artists would get a set amount of money per stream, rather than the amount they get being dependent on how many other songs their listeners listened to.

Re: Justice at Spotify

#260
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who has power over the record labels? Spotify. What power does Spotify have over record labels?

Distribution tends to be the hardest part of any supply chain and it doesn't seem like music is any different. Spotify owns distribution and has almost no competitors anymore (either online or offline) and the future is very clearly streaming. So the labels will end up depending on Spotify for revenue. In 2018, streaming revenue accounted for half of all label revenue[0], and that will only increase. [0] https://mash…

Spotify doesn't own any distribution. The labels do, and they could just not renew their contract and move to a competitor's service at a whim, destroying the company (who wants a service where 1/3 of the artists are not available?).

They have the biggest share currently, but they're never safe.

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