Every $1 of BTC value responsible for $0.49 in health and climate damages in US • Hacker News Board

Re: Every $1 of BTC value responsible for $0.49 in health and climate damages in US

#251

Post by noxer » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

BenoitEssiambre wrote: post #126

While this is sad, this is a self correcting problem. Miners and other people using bitcoins are going to get tired at some point of the loss from buying all this energy to keep their bitcoin assets going. The most scary part of cryptocoins is the deflationary cycle that makes these crypto asset potentially displace productive investment on an economy wide scale. This is not self correcting. This is Moloch, it's a pr…

Don't worry it IS defensively self correcting no matter who joins and for what reason. To keep it going forever it would need endless quadratic grows which is not possible.

Also there are solutions without PoW/PoS, they use FBA instead. As soon as they take over for any actual use, the energy wasting will come to an end.

Re: Every $1 of BTC value responsible for $0.49 in health and climate damages in US

#252

Post by groby_b » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

kryogen1c wrote: post #100

> responsible for $0.49 in health and climate damages red flag this article is steeped in pseudoscience. you could spend a lifetime trying to model and predict global weather patterns _with no outside intervention_. the idea that you could even make an attempt at attaching a number to this phenomena is laughable. what are the error bars here, 10,000%? lets pretend, for example, you tried to estimate the impact of tsu…

This doesn't engage with the report at all. You call it pseudoscience without any supporting evidence. You speculate about error bars without grounding in fact, and the only counterargument you bring is a weak hand waving that it must be a hard problem, with a gratuitous citation from Wikipedia.

And given that you basically claim that actuarial science is impossible, I'd hope you bring a stronger claim than that.

As it is, this is, as the quote goes, "just your opinion, man".

Re: Every $1 of BTC value responsible for $0.49 in health and climate damages in US

#253

Post by karpour » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

trident5000 wrote: post #102

Ah yes, the daily Bitcoin attack astroturf.

Ah yes, the daily "I don't give a f** about the environmental impact of proof-of-work cryptocurrencies" comment.

Not saying that this paper is great, but I'm honestly tired of people (who obviously invested in Bitcoin) conveniently ignoring the impact.

Re: Every $1 of BTC value responsible for $0.49 in health and climate damages in US

#254

Post by gowld » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

karpour wrote: post #216

rkachowski wrote: post #132

I don't understand where all these "cryptocurrency vs the environment" posts are coming from recently. The core problem is energy use, no? Things using electricity - of which bitcoin is a huge one - are powered by environmentally damaging supplies. I don't care about BTC at all, but if it were to be wiped out of existence tomorrow it would prevent further damage to the environment in exactly the same way that getting…

I don't think you realize the scale of it. Bitcoin is primarily used for speculation, the value is only based on more and more people buying in, and the energy usage is overwhelming. We are in dire need of reducing overall energy usage, but Bitcoin works against this in a huge way. And even if the energy comes from "sustainable sources", solar cells still need to be manufactured, the hardware that does nothing but mi…

> overall negative impact on society and environment

is the description of almost everything in the developed world lifestyle, from animal meat to automobiles to overlarge houses.

Re: Every $1 of BTC value responsible for $0.49 in health and climate damages in US

#255

Post by capableweb » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

h4kor wrote: post #222

capableweb wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, without those miners, the energy supply wouldn't have increased in the first place. In the energy market, demand drives supply, not the other way around. It's very uncommon to spend money on converting energy supply from coal/gas to other sources, as it doesn't make sense in terms of money for the companies. Instead they focus on creating new supply with renewables.

So we built hydro plants and disrupted the local ecosystems to run bitcoin miners?

No, organizations built hydro plants for whatever reason in places where supply ended up higher than demand, driving down the prices. With that move, Bitcoin miners saw the opportunity and placed themselves within that ecosystem.

Bitcoin miners don't put their operations in the middle of nowhere and then ask someone to build hydro plants...

Re: Every $1 of BTC value responsible for $0.49 in health and climate damages in US

#256

Post by bingbong70 » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

BTCOG wrote: post #197

bingbong70 wrote: post #93

If $1 in BTC is responsible for ~$0.50 (I don't buy this claim)...imagine how much damage central banks cause by debasing currencies to fight endless wars, funding corruption through a class of useless cantillonaires, exacerbating inequality, etc.... Central bank corruption probably even indirectly funded the stupidity that allows articles like these to be branded as "science"...to the casual observer this might seem…

And look at us being downvoted into oblivion. CensoredNews. I fail to see how the comment sections here are at all real when it's blatantly apparent it's constantly manipulated and censored. You can't leave honest commentary on HackerNews unless it agrees with the HackerNews Zeitgeist.

I expect many of the people here are one or two-hops downstream of the corrupt cantillon class whether they realize it or not (who makes risk-free stock-buybacks possible? Central banks). Not surprised by their response to the potential decentralization of the monetary system using BTC...

Re: Every $1 of BTC value responsible for $0.49 in health and climate damages in US

#257

Post by tekknik » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #225

gitrog wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say that to GP who just dismissed a published study without actually taking on any of the claims made therein.

They questioned the methodology specifically. So it's not just an assertion.

...of a published study. The only reason people are defending GP now is because the subject is BTC.

Re: Every $1 of BTC value responsible for $0.49 in health and climate damages in US

#258

Post by karpour » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

nyolfen wrote: post #26

_red wrote: post #10

As opposed to fiat, which funds war and enormous waste via unrestrained printing....

the petrodollar system is built on US military hegemony, with that military being the largest fossil fuel consuming entity in the largest fossil fuel consuming nation -- "the largest single institutional consumer of hydrocarbons in the world"[1], towards the end of making sure people buy oil with dollars. in a very real sense the value of the dollar is maintained by the fact that people have to buy oil with it. crypt…

Great whataboutism, 10/10

Re: Every $1 of BTC value responsible for $0.49 in health and climate damages in US

#259

Post by trident5000 » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

GavinMcG wrote: post #232

trident5000 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could make up some fear mongering "study" about almost every energy using topic. AI and video rendering for instance which is often for some marginal purpose. Or heating pools, idle electronics, big homes with AC, leisure travel, all the useless crap bought and manufactured in China with dirty coal, etc.

Are you saying we shouldn't understand the consequences of what we do? It's useful to know that BTC has major externalities because it allows us to make a rational choice. We could make different choices about all the things you listed, too. Or not! But you seem to be actually arguing for willful blindness, here.

aRE yOu SayInG tHat

No Im actually not. You said that. Pointing out that you can cherry pick and micro-analyze anything.

Re: Every $1 of BTC value responsible for $0.49 in health and climate damages in US

#260

Post by joshspankit » Thu, Mar 04, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

There was an excellent discussion about this last night in CH. The takeaway was that because solar is now the cheapest source of electricity, miners are flocking to it.

An estimated 30% of the BTC network is running on solar. It’s not perfect, but as long as the most ecologically friendly electricity is the cheapest, I feel like miners will drive straight for it at record speed.