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Short fat engineers are undervalued

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Re: Short fat engineers are undervalued

#251
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ideal is an expert who sets up the project, builds the guard rails, creates the patterns and basically sets up a framework for everyone to use. Then they teach everyone how to use it and why And from then it’s a mentoring role. The expert spends more time PR-ing and adding to the framework than building end product features. They build stuff that touches every feature. Force multiplier is the game.

I have been the "expert" in many situations, and no way would I let this happen. 1.) Mentoring is such a difficult aspect as an expert. I likely would have built up my expertise from a combination of my studies, my past work experience and my previous, extremely skilled mentors. I can't expect people to get up to speed simply through my mentoring alone - especially if I'm not a capable enough communicator. 2.) Expert…

> Experts like to retain their expertise, stay unique.

In sports they call that a Ball Hog.

Is software a collaborative effort or an ego trip for three people?

As someone else mentioned, their expert was spread too thin. I’ve had this happen to me, too, and the only solution I know is to give away (delegate) almost everything you can. If some part really makes you happy, hold onto that even if you could give it away. Not for ego, but for burnout. You need some reasons to show up in the morning, just like everybody else.

Re: Short fat engineers are undervalued

#252
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, perhaps I'm reasoning about this correctly, but wouldn't you think the opposite? Being attractive provides evolutionary slack that requires less optimization on other characteristics (like intelligence), and vice versa.

Being judged attractive is a cultural thing that varies with time and place. Being judged intelligent is also a cultural thing that varies with time and place. Unless your culture is static for 20+ generations, don't expect much influence of it on evolution.

> Being judged attractive is a cultural thing that varies with time and place.

This is partially true, but there are many significant markers of attractiveness that are not particularly context-dependent.

> Being judged intelligent is also a cultural thing that varies with time and place.

This I disagree with much more strongly. "Being judged intelligent" isn't explicitly isn't the only thing that feeds into the evolutionary drive, and the second-order consequences are much more significant: being quick-witted/funny, increasing likelihood of success/resources, etc. The concept of general intelligence is not nearly as narrowly-defined as you're implying. To take an example, subsistence farming isn't exactly _easy_. General intelligence is an important factor in success at subsistence farming just as it is in success at post-industrial white-collar work.

Re: Short fat engineers are undervalued

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, perhaps I'm reasoning about this correctly, but wouldn't you think the opposite? Being attractive provides evolutionary slack that requires less optimization on other characteristics (like intelligence), and vice versa.

No, I don't think this reasoning holds. What is intuitively considered attractive is itself an evolved trait, so as a meta-evolutionary strategy it almost certainly selects for otherwise desirable traits.

In this thread, "attractive" is being used as shorthand for "physically attractive": it was first introduced in response to a comment talking about height.

Also, while intelligence is per se attractive to some degree, it's also mediated through downstream effects like a higher likelihood of financial/resource success.

Re: Short fat engineers are undervalued

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s a hot take on that front: “ The well-known association between height and earnings is often thought to reflect factors such as self esteem, social dominance, and discrimination. We offer a simpler explanation: height is positively associated with cognitive ability, which is rewarded in the labor market.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2709415/

The issue with that theory is that height is significantly more correlated with labor market outcomes for men than for women. Naive models of what you're suggesting (where e.g. negative gestational or early environmental influences are correlated with disrupted height growth and cognitive abilities) would result in men and women both showing the correlation. A secondary point is that a correlation between height and…

> The issue with that theory is that height is significantly more correlated with labor market outcomes for men than for women.

How about cognitive abilities? You'd need to state that there is no (or less) difference in those between the two genders in order for this to be a valid counter argument.

> correlation between height and cognitive ability existing in a world where children suffer poverty/malnutrition/exposure to lead does not imply

The paper uses UK and US data.

Re: Short fat engineers are undervalued

#255
post #3

The article itself isn't about this but one could theorize that the headline taken literally is also likely true.

one could devil's advocate speculate the other way as well; e.g. If IQ declines with age, and exercise is a way to slow the decline[1], fatness could reflect lack of exercise and lifestyle which doesn't prioritise exercise, so would you expect to see lower value for fatter engineers in a pure meritocracy? If lower IQ correlates with obesity (" a 10‐point decrease in IQ was associated with a 1.10‐fold increase in the…

> If IQ declines with age,

IQ doesn't decline with age. Pretty simply because IQ is deliberately determined in an age agnostic way: your IQ score tells how well your problem solving skills are compared to your age group.

Fluid intelligence does decline with age, but most people are said to be able to keep up fairly decently by utilizing (and building) crystalized intelligence. Now, of course, your usefulness as an engineer may very well decline with age. Though there are different roles that you can take on in most organizations. It's anecdotal, but my mother used to be a software engineer until her retirement in her sixties, as well as her colleagues she used to work with when I was a child. They started their careers in the 70s and 80s and most of them never left the field.

Re: Short fat engineers are undervalued

#256

The most successful engineers, to me, seem to be the ones who rise about the lower levels of technology and abstract out minor details. They understand what the technology in question can do and cannot do. They know what other technologies can be paired and cannot be paired with the current one and they understand the performance, development, deployment and maintenance aspects of all the combinations. They can then…

I’ve always felt understanding the broader context of technologies is one of the hardest things.

Re: Short fat engineers are undervalued

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm half with you, and I see both sides. When it's done well , I think it's a fantastic approach. I'm in a situation right now where I'm kind of that "expert". Not because it was planned that way, but because I was the only person on the project at the start. Now I've got a couple of young EEs working under me, and they do most of the development work while I sit in meetings for a good chunk of the day. I come in and…

There's also the fundamental question of whether or not the expert is actually an expert. It sounds like in the unpleasant case you mention, maybe there wasn't so much expertise there. I think you're right that having skin in the game is critical. It's important to have real accountability, so if there's painful design flaws, the expert feels it. But it's easy to think it should have been done differently and better…

> thinking the design decisions made by the "expert" were ridiculous, and talking with the expert, and finding out I didn't know everything and I was wrong

I'm laughing pretty hard at this. The codebase in this current project is definitely a bit... quirkly. It's semi-embedded (Linux on an 8-core ARM unit) and doing high-performance image processing (C++ on Linux). The new guy last month has a fair bit more programming experience than "fresh grad" would lead one to expect, and the first week he had a lot of questions like that.

Him: "Why is it like this? Couldn't we just..."

Me: "Would that keep all 8 cores busy processing things as fast as possible?"

Him: "Oh. Yeah. I guess not!"

Him: "Wait... couldn't we just...hmmm...no... that would serialize everything..."

I suppose one other angle to it is that I don't have a lot of ego in it; if someone figures out a way to squeeze more juice out of the system we've got, they're going to get high-fives.

Re: Short fat engineers are undervalued

#258

"Junior in every department" really struck hard for me. I know just enough of basically everything to get by or as a starting point, but I lack that really deep knowledge that comes from using a small group of skills and tools for years. I feel that switching languages and frameworks and tools and OSes a bunch of times early in my career has really held me back. I don't mind supporting my team, what I don't like is h…

I'm in the opposite position; I've spent almost my entire five-year career focusing on one quite narrow tech stack and I'm good at it but I'm also sick of it and desperate to learn something new. I just changed jobs and I took a substantial pay cut for the chance to get professional experience in a new tech stack, which isn't ideal, but I really want to work with a new language and I don't know what else to do (there…

I'm curious, what stacks did you trade?

Re: Short fat engineers are undervalued

#259

"Junior in every department" really struck hard for me. I know just enough of basically everything to get by or as a starting point, but I lack that really deep knowledge that comes from using a small group of skills and tools for years. I feel that switching languages and frameworks and tools and OSes a bunch of times early in my career has really held me back. I don't mind supporting my team, what I don't like is h…

"Junior" is not the same as "fat & short". It puts stigma onto you (no experience, green) and your capabilities (needs guidance, possibly bad judgment) which is certainly unfounded after working several years in the industry, no matter how niche your stack was. Switching technologies does not make you a "Junior" when you have loads of war stories to tell.

Re: Short fat engineers are undervalued

#260

"Junior in every department" really struck hard for me. I know just enough of basically everything to get by or as a starting point, but I lack that really deep knowledge that comes from using a small group of skills and tools for years. I feel that switching languages and frameworks and tools and OSes a bunch of times early in my career has really held me back. I don't mind supporting my team, what I don't like is h…

I have also been working on different tech throughout my career. Do you suffer from imposter syndrome because of this? I often feel like I don't know as much as my peers do. I can't do things that quickly. I am in a very good workplace now where my manager appreciates my work. But most of the times I feel I am not contributing like others. I don't even understand that much.

Yes, I sometime have a strong doubt of my abilities. You're not alone in that.
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