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East Coast Internet Outage

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Re: East Coast Internet Outage

#251

Post by nine_zeros »

throw0101a wrote: post #229
nine_zeros wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, America should strive to not have enemies. We fail at this very badly. Secondly, ZERO countries in the world have non-fragile infrastructure. America's infrastructure is better than most countries and definitely above average even among developed countries, except public transportation.

> Firstly, America should strive to not have enemies. We fail at this very badly. This will never be possible, even if America does nothing 'wrong' against anyone else. As long as America (flaws and all) is a better place to live than other countries, and can be used as an example of how things can be better (though not perfect), and so will be a target of powers that don't want their own people thinking about improv…

America will always have adversaries. But enemies, who what to destroy the country? That's entirely our own creation.

We should try to make enemies only when attacked. Not make enemies out of adversaries.

Re: East Coast Internet Outage

#252

Post by Johnny555 »

jzer0cool wrote: post #135

When houses are created there are building codes to adhere to. For example, when there is a water pipe behind the walls a plumber (a good one) would also put a plate in front of it. In this way, once the walls are in place, drilling away into the wall, or nailing, would hit the metal plate, thus provides some safety mechanism. As another example, underground, in public areas are markings (or at least procedures) to i…

Liability is pretty good protection -- pretty much everyone that uses heavy equipment to dig is aware of the need to use the "call before you dig" numbers to have someone come out and mark underground utilities.

There's always the person with a rented ditch digger or over confidence "Well I dug out here last year and didn't hit anything, so I can dig again" who doesn't call or notice the trace cable, but overall that service works pretty well at preventing disruptions.

Re: East Coast Internet Outage

#253

Post by Johnny555 »

kevwil wrote: post #215

Imagine a world where all our enemies DIDN'T know how fragile our infrastructure is. False security, surely, but still would be somewhat comforting. :)

The problem isn't our enemies knowing how fragile our infrastructure is as much as it Americans not knowing (or not caring) and being unwilling to spend money to make it less fragile.

Re: East Coast Internet Outage

#254

Post by rafael09ed »

nine_zeros wrote: post #251
throw0101a wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Firstly, America should strive to not have enemies. We fail at this very badly. This will never be possible, even if America does nothing 'wrong' against anyone else. As long as America (flaws and all) is a better place to live than other countries, and can be used as an example of how things can be better (though not perfect), and so will be a target of powers that don't want their own people thinking about improv…

America will always have adversaries. But enemies, who what to destroy the country? That's entirely our own creation. We should try to make enemies only when attacked. Not make enemies out of adversaries.

I disagree it's our fault for having enemies if we want to keep our values but regardless we have enemies now and I don't see them going away for a while.

Re: East Coast Internet Outage

#255

Post by toddjcrane »

jzer0cool wrote: post #135

When houses are created there are building codes to adhere to. For example, when there is a water pipe behind the walls a plumber (a good one) would also put a plate in front of it. In this way, once the walls are in place, drilling away into the wall, or nailing, would hit the metal plate, thus provides some safety mechanism. As another example, underground, in public areas are markings (or at least procedures) to i…

In a most states, there are blue stake laws requiring you to call and set an appointment to have existing utilities marked with spray paint before you dig. Even though this service is usually free to the contractor, it's sometimes viewed as one more hassle. Usually they didn't plan in advance and so their trying to cut corners to save time.

Re: East Coast Internet Outage

#256

Post by twothamendment »

stickfigure wrote: post #216
dboreham wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm probably the only person reading this thread who owns a backhoe, and it's only a small one. There's really no material that will resist being dug through and is also practical to bury over miles and miles of fiber. There obviously are processes and measures in place to prevent "backhoe-fade" events, including armored cable, tracer wires and tape above the main cable but humans being humans things sometimes don't…

You are not the only person reading this thread who owns a backhoe. Everything else is 100% correct!

I don't have a backhoe, does an excavator count?

I once hit a gas line. With a jackhammer. 8” below the surface. That should never happen, but did.

Re: East Coast Internet Outage

#257

Post by dang »

Ansil849 wrote: post #248
dang wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It set off the flamewar detector. We monitor that list and eventually cancel the penalty for threads that aren't actual flamewars, but it takes a while. If anyone wants to make it faster, emailing hn@ycombinator.com is usually a forcing function. Edit: Also, posts without URLs get a downweight by default. I've turned that off too, and merged the other threads into this one, since it was the first one.

> It set off the flamewar detector. Why? There do not appear to have been any posts remotely resembling a flamewar in the comments.

That's answered in my sibling (well, cousin) comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25921757. It can't test for flamewars directly so it ends up guessing wrong sometimes.

Re: East Coast Internet Outage

#258

Post by wolrah »

Johnny555 wrote: post #253
kevwil wrote: post #215

Imagine a world where all our enemies DIDN'T know how fragile our infrastructure is. False security, surely, but still would be somewhat comforting. :)

The problem isn't our enemies knowing how fragile our infrastructure is as much as it Americans not knowing (or not caring) and being unwilling to spend money to make it less fragile.

> Americans not knowing (or not caring) and being unwilling to spend money to make it less fragile.

And of course the fact that for the most part those most impacted by these outages aren't the ones making the decisions about what money to spend in the first place.

I have no meaningful influence on my ISP's network backbone. I don't even have a real choice in ISP so it's not like I can go to someone else, and they know it.

I currently have 500mbit/sec service from my cable company and the only other options are ~50mbit/sec 4G or Frontier DSL that claims 24mbit/sec while rarely syncing beyond 8. Those aren't actual alternatives. If I want to have a connection that can properly support a household full of gamers and streamers, I'm stuck with this unless I want to add another zero or two to my monthly bill for a dedicated fiber line.

This is the best case scenario for the majority of the US. One cable company that's mostly decent, one shitty DSL provider, and a few wireless services that have very limited spectrum and data caps. Almost no one in this country has true competition in wired broadband unless they have a municipal fiber service or are lucky enough to be in one of the few cities that Google dumped money in to.

Re: East Coast Internet Outage

#259

Post by stephenr »

dboreham wrote: post #214
jzer0cool wrote: post #135

When houses are created there are building codes to adhere to. For example, when there is a water pipe behind the walls a plumber (a good one) would also put a plate in front of it. In this way, once the walls are in place, drilling away into the wall, or nailing, would hit the metal plate, thus provides some safety mechanism. As another example, underground, in public areas are markings (or at least procedures) to i…

I'm probably the only person reading this thread who owns a backhoe, and it's only a small one. There's really no material that will resist being dug through and is also practical to bury over miles and miles of fiber. There obviously are processes and measures in place to prevent "backhoe-fade" events, including armored cable, tracer wires and tape above the main cable but humans being humans things sometimes don't…

I thought they were supposed to lay that "cable/pipe/Jimmy Hoffa buried here" warning tape somewhere above the fragile thing that's buried, so if digging you'd catch the tape, see it, and stop?

Re: East Coast Internet Outage

#260

Post by ficklepickle »

jauer wrote: post #245
jzer0cool wrote: post #135

When houses are created there are building codes to adhere to. For example, when there is a water pipe behind the walls a plumber (a good one) would also put a plate in front of it. In this way, once the walls are in place, drilling away into the wall, or nailing, would hit the metal plate, thus provides some safety mechanism. As another example, underground, in public areas are markings (or at least procedures) to i…

> when there is a water pipe behind the walls a plumber (a good one) would also put a plate in front of it Where are you located (roughly)? Having assisted in remodeling of 7 homes in the US (IL, WI, CA) built between 1880 and 2005 I haven't seen this.

I've heard of such a thing but never seen it. I was a satellite installer and drilled into a lot of walls. I'd just drill thru the drywall then feel around with a drill bit.
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