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Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

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Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#251

Post by conanbatt »

pmoriarty wrote: post #104
random5634 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The propaganda unfortunately also comes from folks direct experience with unions. In the US, most unions are public sector. So folks see that Police unions may protect bad apples via union. Teachers unions may care more about teachers including bad ones then teaching kids. We had a famously terrible teacher at my school - unfirable - as kids we thought it was hilarious. As a parent now - not so cool. Non unionized sc…

The problem is when anecdotes about isolated abuses are used to reject unions outright rather than looking at whether unions as a whole would benefit society. You could argue from personal experience that you went to a bad school therefore all schools are bad, or you had a bad experience with therefore all people of that sort are bad. It's just not very convincing.

The plural of anecdotes is called data.

There are plenty of examples of unions being really bad in the US, the burden of proof is now on the other side of the court.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#252

Post by rileymat2 »

soperj wrote: post #192
rileymat2 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very rare that the best propaganda is made up. The best is true but incomplete, anecdotal in this case. To hold up it must be true, but misleading.

What are you basing this on? For years the Nazi went on and on about the Jews being the inferior race, about how it was science based, they indoctrinated the youth.

I don't particularly want to go on hate sites to find examples at this moment.

But the gist is, there are statements that are not falsifiable, like that "inferior race" that is not fact, it is the conclusion, but it is not falsifiable easily because there is no clear metric being used for that judgment.

If you look at U.S. race based hate sites that are easiest to find now, you will see things like accurate references to crime rates and such. The number is true, but it is missing all kinds of context and correlations and such.

For example, I have seen many references to lower IQ scores for certain groups. There are many ways to interpret this, but the racists use it as evidence. The "number" is true.

Also, the anecdotes they tell are largely true, but to pick and choose emotional one off examples is misleading.

By warping "true" things, you maintain credibility.

Look at some of the election stuff. For example, if someone said "They were bringing suitcases into the polling place" (I can't remember the exact details) There is video it is true, but it is not nefarious. But it takes a long time to rebuff the implication and explain proper procedure.

Now, I may have overstated "best", because the best is emotional, and a lot of that is art, nothing to do with fact, and portrayal of the enemy. You see this in a lot of the Nazi imagery. It has nothing to do with facts, true or false.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#253

Post by bluedino »

joshe wrote: post #80
simpixelated wrote: post #5

Along with the unionization at Google, I think it's a good trend to see them happening at big tech companies. As it says in the article: "Unions are a prominent presence at Amazon in Europe, but the company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." It's sad that Amazon, along with FB and Google, etc. have managed to squash unions so completely here in the US. There's a lot of propaganda…

American unions are quite different from European unions. European unions spend a lot of time running apprenticeship programs and doing things like advocating for more productivity. Like trying to figure out how to make the shop floor more efficient. American unions spend time preventing bad employees from being fired (like the NY teacher's rubber rooms and police unions fighting the firing of cops with 5 excessive f…

>> European unions spend a lot of time running apprenticeship programs

Trade unions in the US do exactly that

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#254

Post by munk-a »

geofft wrote: post #213
munk-a wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a worker I appreciate the fact that when I was burgled a decade ago there was someone to call to inform about the burglary. I also very much appreciate the fact that "having police" (even vaguely, and even ineffective ones) is a pretty good deterrent to (most) random folks murdering other folks[1]. There is a hell of a lot wrong with American policing but they do productive work just like managers (that don't prod…

What did informing the cops about the burglary do, precisely? One specific feature (at least in the US) is that a police report is required for an insurance claim - but there's no fundamental reason this system requires a police report, as opposed to, say, a sworn statement to a clerk of court or a public prosecutor. And even so, that's about getting some form of recompense after the crime happened, not stopping the…

> What did informing the cops about the burglary do, precisely?

It mostly just made me feel better - the chances of recovering items after a theft or burglary is nearly nil. However, after having my home invaded by a stranger and my personal belongings rifled through it was quite cathartic to report the crime, give all the information I could to try and make sure the criminals were eventually caught, and help restore my sanity by just seeing a system in place for these issues.

I received no recompense for the crime and, at the time, I wasn't insured, but I was also dirt poor and didn't have much to lose except my privacy.

On the topic of murders I agree that detectives and investigators are the ones that will end up catching murderers and beat/patrol police do very little to apprehend criminals but they do make the system dramatically more visible and do a lot to de-escalate situations[1] from becoming as dangerous. The chances that you will be mid-being-murdered and be rescued by the police are nearly zero - the chances that someone who may have murdered you decides not to do so is more significant and, I think, aided by a visible patrol police force - even if they don't significantly contribute to resolving justice.

So I both agree with you that police are pretty useless when it comes to dealing with crimes after the fact - but disagree with you about their general efficacy. They should exist to de-escalate situations before they become real problems and make visible the rules of society that we should all abide by.

Oh, this is all very much my opinion so I've not got a lot of sources or references to pull on as to how to make police into a force that does that.

1. In this point I'm speaking as a now-Canadian - I don't really feel qualified to speak on the US system as 1) I'm white and 2) I haven't lived there in over a decade. So please do excuse this statement if you (the reader) have personally suffered unreasonable escalation of force.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#255

Post by quadrifoliate »

rayiner wrote: post #226
pmoriarty wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is when anecdotes about isolated abuses are used to reject unions outright rather than looking at whether unions as a whole would benefit society. You could argue from personal experience that you went to a bad school therefore all schools are bad, or you had a bad experience with therefore all people of that sort are bad. It's just not very convincing.

It’s not “anecdotes about isolated abuses.” Even parents I know who are solidly on the left are outraged by how completely inflexible teachers’ unions have been during the pandemic. Even people I know who are ardent Democrats in states like Illinois grumble quietly about the government having no money because they’re crushed under pension obligations. The problem is that, in the US, most peoples’ experiences with uni…

> Even parents I know who are solidly on the left are outraged by how completely inflexible teachers’ unions have been during the pandemic.

As a dueling anecdote, I know plenty of libertarian/right-leaning folks who privately tell me that they totally understand that teachers (regardless of unions) should not have to face a highly infectious disease in classrooms just so a bunch of double-income parents want to keep doing their office jobs over Zoom. The current problems have almost nothing to do with unions directly.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#256

Post by dahfizz »

guerrilla wrote: post #250
rayiner wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not “anecdotes about isolated abuses.” Even parents I know who are solidly on the left are outraged by how completely inflexible teachers’ unions have been during the pandemic. Even people I know who are ardent Democrats in states like Illinois grumble quietly about the government having no money because they’re crushed under pension obligations. The problem is that, in the US, most peoples’ experiences with uni…

"It's not only anecdotes" and giving more anecdotes isn't an argument.

They said "It’s not anecdotes __about isolated abuses__". At a certain point, anecdotes become universal experiences, and therefore inform general political views.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#257

Post by lawnchair_larry »

kieselguhr_kid wrote: post #130

I worked at and organized a local grocery store in 2015 into the UFCW local. Workers there have six weeks of vacation after a year, much higher than average wages and excellent health benefits. They also have a real shield from arbitrary discipline, which had been a rampant problem. Seeing all the anti-union propaganda makes me wonder how many people spreading it have ever been in a union. It seems like most of it is…

Positions on unions should not be absolute. There are many people who are these anti-establishment, universally pro-union types, as if they improve everything they touch and there are no downsides. The reality is that unions are a big tradeoff. For grocery workers and warehouse workers and other low skill positions, they tend to make sense. Labor laws are definitely a better way to handle things.

Unions should also be a last resort. Folks need to stop assuming that their employer is oppressive and give them a chance to accommodate their grievances, and they should be reasonable in what they expect from an employer/employee relationship. The best possible outcome is having an employer who gives you what you want (within reason) without a union. Folks who make hundreds of K per year, get unlimited vacation, flexible working time, free gourmet meals, the best health benefits on the market have a lot less reason ti resort to such a blunt instrument than a factory worker in a one factory town.

They should also be sincere in their evaluation of rebuttals. It’s import to build trust on both sides. Sometimes threats of a plant closure are bluffing as a negotiating tactic, but sometimes they aren’t.

For what it’s worth, I have been a union member and many of my family members are in unions. I do not have good things to say about them at all, but it’s true that some places are even worse without them.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#258

Post by yowlingcat »

pmoriarty wrote: post #104
random5634 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The propaganda unfortunately also comes from folks direct experience with unions. In the US, most unions are public sector. So folks see that Police unions may protect bad apples via union. Teachers unions may care more about teachers including bad ones then teaching kids. We had a famously terrible teacher at my school - unfirable - as kids we thought it was hilarious. As a parent now - not so cool. Non unionized sc…

The problem is when anecdotes about isolated abuses are used to reject unions outright rather than looking at whether unions as a whole would benefit society. You could argue from personal experience that you went to a bad school therefore all schools are bad, or you had a bad experience with therefore all people of that sort are bad. It's just not very convincing.

> The problem is when anecdotes about isolated abuses

What makes you jump to label that complaint an "anecdote" and an "isolated abuse" rather than evidence of structural rot and public union corruption?

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#259

Post by ryathal »

quandrum wrote: post #168
asdff wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For every anecdote of an isolated case of union abuse, there are probably hundreds of unheard cases of corporations abusing their workers. But that doesn't matter for most people, simplistic logic says therefore all unions are bad and capable of corruption, and ignoring that most of the time, the status quo is far, far more exploitative for the average worker. Once again, perfect becomes the enemy of good, and condit…

Wage theft is the most common crime in the US, is estimated to occur to ~20% of all employees and equal tens of billions a year, and no one talks about it. How many union members do you think experience wage theft?

For some union members the dues achieve the same result.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#260

Post by sudosysgen »

DenisM wrote: post #100
CobrastanJorji wrote: post #2

I wonder what percentage of otherwise very liberal Amazon devs read sentences like "The company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." and come away thinking "we're definitely the good guys."

Sometime during the last year the usually heavily statist left became heavily corporatist. I'm not sure what to make of it.

Because leftists became liberal centrists as the left was thoroughly destroyed during the 70s-90s.

This process was, ironically, only made possible by the destruction of unions which were the most important leftist institution.

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