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Why can't I write code inside my browser?

tomcritchlow.com

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Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#251

Post by malux85 »

user-the-name wrote: post #242
malux85 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been programming for 25 years now, about 20 of which as a developer at billion dollar companies, google, facebook and various high scale hedge funds, including systems that serve billions of users a day. I have had a hobby in embedded programming and FPGA programming, compiler design and distributed deep learning. All of which used /usr/local/bin and $PATH. Every system, regardless of programming language across…

The reason I say it has nothing to do with programming is that none of all of these tools that make you rely on this stuff NEED to do so. They chose to. But they don't need to. This is an implementation detail that is entirely orthogonal to the rest of the task of programming. Superfluous, and could be replaced at any time. And I note you immediately jump to the conclusion that I am too stupid to know these things th…

No, I was just saying that in my vast experience the two things that you described as:

"absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with programming. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. It is completely superfluous knowledge"

Were indeed critical components to all of these systems, and organisations, and that it's not a big ask to require a programmer to know them.

Also, on what authority do you decide what is programming and what isn't?

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#252

Post by johannboehme »

Does the author not get browsers at all?

Chrome should include a nodejs installation by default because the commandline is scary? Does he know, that node is based on the V8 engine that's part of Chrome? Packing it in would be redundant and it's a pure backend integration. You dont need nodejs to learn javascript.

If Pathes and Commands are scary, just right-click on your desktop. Click New->Text Document and name it "index.html". Open the document in a text editor of your choice. insert ### into the file. Replace ### with your js code. Open file in browser.. Its that easy. FFS, some people just want to complain.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#253

Post by antisol »

DanielKehoe wrote: post #95
antisol wrote: post #36

>Why can't I write code inside my browser? um... because you didn't press ctrl-shift-I? But frankly, if you can't manage to install ruby and think $PATH is somehow complicated or scary, I don't want you writing code. So maybe it's for the best that you haven't discovered the developer tools built into every browser.

$PATH is complicated and scary for most beginners, just as math can be scary for many kids, especially if they don't have a good teacher. Do we say we don't want kids learning math? No, we need to be better teachers. There are so many people with great ambitions and ideas who just need good guidance. Let's help them, not dismiss them.

>Do we say we don't want kids learning math?

No, but I also don't want them being paid for their efforts to prove the Riemann hypothesis using only an abacus.

>we need to be better teachers

According to google there are about 1,040,000 results for 'what is "$PATH"?'. I feel like one or more of those is probably a pretty good resource.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#254

Post by grumple »

user-the-name wrote: post #104
kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

The author is 100% correct on everything. Programming is massively over-complicated for no useful reason. Programmers tend to get very proud of the completely pointless knowledge they have to acquire to use the pointlessly complicated tools they do, and they confuse that with being clever. It's not. It's really not. Nothing has to be this esoteric and annoying. We've just chosen to keep things like this because we th…

> Programming can and should be much, much more user friendly than it is now.

For what sort of users? It's clear a number of people here consider the command line difficult. I do not. There are many tools that make simple tasks very simple. I use it for manipulating tab files. I can pipe data through scripts and back through command line utilities, pipe it directly into a database, or do the reverse. It's very simple, and very powerful.

Just because you don't understand it or aren't familiar with it doesn't mean it isn't simple, powerful, and user friendly.

Most programming languages are very simple. a = 1, b = 2, if a+b > 2, doSomething(). You can't actually make the logic simpler than that - this is why visual programming fails. It's still programming, but it turns out a limited visual/gui tool to do these logical operations is much harder to manage and work with than actual code.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#255

Post by lionkor »

user-the-name wrote: post #250
lionkor wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

-v for verbose -o for outfile / output -f for file / infile -q for quiet there are already many of these, and for the others that arent so common between tools. Compilers will, inevitably, need switches that, say, a code editor doesnt need. You're right that, for example, `watch` has -n for "delay", and `htop` has -d, but then again those accept different types (seconds vs some other sub-second measurement).

Unless it's -V for verbose. Or -i for infile. Or no flag for infile. Or no flag for outfile. Or...

fair, there are commandline tools by third parties that dont conform. From reading your other comments, though, I can tell that you likely don't enjoy learning complicated systems in order to leverage them for your advantage. Just like the author of the article, you complain on and on, without displaying any sort of passion for the good things this complexity brings.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#256

Post by aspaceman »

user-the-name wrote: post #106
malux85 wrote: post #88

If the author has “been playing with the web and code for years” and is still “wtf” on /usr/local/bin in $PATH it shows a lack of discipline and structure in their learning. I see this in many in many of my apprentices - the desire for instant gratification and the lack of experience means they refuse to do anything that doesn’t immediately proceed them closer to their goal. Here’s the thing with programming - you ca…

/usr/local/bin has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with programming. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. It is completely superfluous knowledge. It is only required because, as the author correctly points out, the tools we use are BAD. They are absolutely fucking AWFUL. /usr/local/bin is an implementation detail from an OS nobody has used for decades. It's still here because we refuse to fix these ridiculous things. Nobody sho…

Yeah but they're bad cause they have to be.

I can't just wave my magic wand and eliminate Bash, and all $PATH nonsense.

It existed before.

So as a programmer, I expect you to know about it. There may be a day when the knowledge is obsolete. Where we can coordinate politically and socially enough to eliminate all usage of bash and $PATH. But those are social and political problems.

As a programmer, I expect you to have the technical knowledge necessary to do your job. Stop complaining about the social and political context that brought $PATH to existence and just know how to use it, and don't write something like it yourself.

Programming is not AWFUL. People and the social and political aspects of interacting with others is AWFUL and always will be. We work around it, we make it better, and we improve it. But no, our tools are not CRAP, they're not AWFUL. We build amazing, wonderful things with these tools.

What a short-sighted perspective. Just pass. Seriously.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#257

Post by user-the-name »

d3ckard wrote: post #237
user-the-name wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, here's an example: You can develop a fully featured, world-class iOS app, and distribute it, without even touching a command line. Nothing in the process would get easier by touching a command line. You just don't need it. There is a fully-featured environment that provides all the tooling you need without it.

You do realize some of us use command line not because we have to, but because it’s usually easier to do so?

Yes, of course. Because your other tools are so bad that even the command line is easier.

I am saying, the fact that those tools are bad is not a given. We could have better tools.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#258

Post by aspaceman »

dijit wrote: post #147
user-the-name wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

/usr/local/bin has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with programming. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. It is completely superfluous knowledge. It is only required because, as the author correctly points out, the tools we use are BAD. They are absolutely fucking AWFUL. /usr/local/bin is an implementation detail from an OS nobody has used for decades. It's still here because we refuse to fix these ridiculous things. Nobody sho…

> /usr/local/bin is an implementation detail from an OS nobody has used for decades. Are you taking the piss? Should we also remove SOCKET's because they were introduced in that same OS? It should be noted that _EVERY_ modern operating system implements a "path" system, even the ones that are very divergent.

" is an implementation detail from an OS nobody has used for decades"

Yeah they're taking the piss. You can make the same argument about GUI tools too. We're gonna be dealing with "implementation details" for awhile lol. This thread is wild. Makes me understand why all the juniors I work with suck so much.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#259

Post by maweki »

user-the-name wrote: post #244
dijit wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he's speaking about First Edition UNIX, and, yes, we don't use that operating system. We just use operating systems which implement concepts derived from there. So, technically correct, though the argument has little merit.

The point is, "/usr/local/bin" is an artifact that made sense on that system, and that system alone, but we started using it elsewhere, and not it is so firmly established we do not dare to change it, even though it is a completely arbitrary choice with no relevance to modern systems.

well, yeah. Every path and name ever in all of history is arbitrary. As is the seperator between the components.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#260

Post by user-the-name »

lionkor wrote: post #241
user-the-name wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's time top refactor the last THIRTY years of absolute garbage development in general.

What programming projects have you completed in the last 10 years?

Too many to list. Currently working as a senior programmer for the user-facing client for a company worth hundreds of millions, with an app store rating of 4.9.

Previously, I've developed open source software that got 5000-10000 downloads a day, and a few private commercial projects that pulled in a few thousand dollars a month.

A recent open source project on github has 8k stars.

Is that enough credentials to listen to what I say?

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