China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#251

Post by dredmorbius » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 8:35 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #202

bmitc wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re assuming one came before the other. It is the corporations that corrupted the politicians, or at least catalyzed the process.

Lol no. Countries with the least corporations have the most corrupt politicians.

Corp-to-population ratio suggests otherwise. Ireland, Liechtenstein, Luxemburg, Switzerland, Isle of Man, the Channel Islands including Guernsey and Jersey, Crete, Bahamas, Barbados, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, and Virgin Islands in the Caribbean, Panama, Hong Kong, and Singapore.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#252

Post by WalterSear » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 8:35 PM UTC

the_drunkard wrote: post #154

echelon wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As much as people in the West praise CCP's economic rise Who is praising the CCP's economic rise? The American consensus as far as I can tell is that we need to shut them out and push them into decline. The West should brain drain the best and brightest from China.

>Who is praising the CCP's economic rise? Did you miss the last 40 years in which US economic policy was underpinned by the thesis that shipping manufacturing jobs to China would give rise to a middle class that supports democracy? Well, here's a reminder if you needed it.

To paraphrase Upton Sinclair, "It is easy to get a man to believe and promote something, when making massive amounts of money depends upon his believing and promoting it."

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#253

Post by hungryhobo » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 8:35 PM UTC

bosswipe wrote: post #226

hungryhobo wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So chinese people should just sit down and live low class life. Got it.

You can be aggrieved, blame the west, assign whatever morality you want, it doesn't change the fact that the planet doesn't have enough resources for everyone to live a middle class lifestyle.

So this whole anti china rhetoric had nothing to do with human rights or unfair trade but everything to do with the west not want to squander its middle life style because our planet can't actually support it. I appreciate your honesty but I wouldn't actually expect the chinese to actually sit down and accept it tho

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#254

Post by ethbr0 » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 8:35 PM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #232

jonathannat wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China's 1.3B population is not equal. around 700M still lives on $140/month income, with no education to "accomplish anything they want". It will have 500M 65 year olds by 2050, too old to "accomplish anything they want". China suffers brain drain to the West. Many of Chinese Ph.D students and scientists I know curse the day Xi Jing Ping declared himself to be the emperor, and is actively moving their families out of…

>advanced semiconductor or airplane engine... Not to disagree, but I believe it's just a matter of time. They're working hard in these areas. Also, recent stats I read somewhere say Chinese Ph.D.'s are returning to China in increasing numbers these days, somewhere around 50% or more compared to the old days when the majority stayed in America or Europe.

The USSR worked hard on semiconductors and airplane engines, but ultimately failed to keep up with the West.

Turns out, people with the means generally prefer living in countries with (a) individual freedom and rights, (b) freedom of the press, (c) an independent judiciary, & (d) economic surplus that responds to demand for luxury goods.

We can whataboutism on where the West currently stands with regards to these things, but if you're pro- and con- ing various options as an educated professional then you have a choice.

And if culture is a major consideration, then you could do worse than the Chinese communities in neighboring democratic states, or the literal democratic Chinese island...

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#255

Post by Ericson2314 » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 8:35 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #217

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, many good points, but some of the same problems exist in the West and in the Asian democracies: covid, debt, aging demographics. China does have one compelling advantage: its enormous population. Even if a horrible plague or even a civil war happened and 100m people died, they still have plenty of people to accomplish anything they want. They have Ph.D. scientists, many trained at top Western universities, who a…

The one child policy makes China’s aging problem particularly rapid, at a time when they are not wealthy enough per capita to make the transition. One child supports two parents and four grandparents. Plus a low retirement age that is only now getting extended. (60 for men, 55 for women previously). Over a third of Shanghai is over 60, as is a quarter in Beijing, Tianjin, etc. Now the one child policy has been relaxe…

I would think this is actually good for them, as more internal demand relative to supply will help further transition away from exports, and also help increases their productivity (at least if they make working hours less insane).

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#256

Post by aussiegreenie » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 8:36 PM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #200

jonathannat wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The era of CCP economic rise is over. Middle income trap and aging demographics dictate as much. CCP will now have to contend with - internal turmoil - political infighting - encirclement by democracies (India, Japan, Australia, US, UK, Canada, France, South Korea, Taiwan). Once Merkel is out in sept 2021, Germany will be onboard - negative sentiment from most of population in the world due to covid - exploding debt/…

Yes, many good points, but some of the same problems exist in the West and in the Asian democracies: covid, debt, aging demographics. China does have one compelling advantage: its enormous population. Even if a horrible plague or even a civil war happened and 100m people died, they still have plenty of people to accomplish anything they want. They have Ph.D. scientists, many trained at top Western universities, who a…

China between 1919-1949 China was ruled by "Warlordism" a weak central government and local strongmen controlling 10-100 million people.

Uncle Xi is killing China. After Mao the whole political model was "collective" so no one could become so strong he would become an Emperor, Xi changes that by removing the two term (10 Yrs) rule of leadership. The CCP had one thing for legitimacy, economic growth. For 30 years China become richer and freer. In 2007 even people in HK were proud to be Chinese. That is not the case anymore. China peaked internationally in 2017.

Post-Xi China whenever that occurs will be a large poor country surrounded by enemies without easy access to global markets. It is impossible to use any Chinese product without the possibility of the use of slave or child labour within the supply chain.

China is more likely to return to Warlordism than become rich.

TL:DR - China became richer and freer post-Mao and now that process has reversed and China is becoming less free and poorer.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#257

Post by berneezy3 » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 8:36 PM UTC

hungryhobo wrote: post #166

f430 wrote: post #95

Guo Wengui said back in September 2019 that "Jack Ma would be jailed or killed" on Kyle Bass's youtube channel. [1] At this point its not even a question of whether we will see Jack Ma in public again. Overnight he went from billionaire to peasantry. We've seen dozen cases like this: 1) Billionaire disappears or is "killed" 2) Billionaire's company becomes nationalized 3) Rinse & Repeat Everybody who isn't familiar w…

I'm sorry but Guo wen Gui is not a credible source. His past claims have repeatedly been debunked. Not to mention his deep ties with Steve bannon

Guo Wen Gui has made some previous claims that seemed outlandish at the time, but turned out to be true, such as China forcibly taking control of Hong Kong, causing protesters to flood the streets; the CCP lying/withholding information on the transmission and the origins of the virus; billionaires being kidnapped/murdered after conflict with the CCP.

I would agree that he often exaggerates, and some of his claims do turn out to be false, but I think we should recognize that he correctly predicted a series of unlikely events w/ regards to China. I think his general intuition of the inner workings of the CCP is correct.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#258

Post by russh » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 8:36 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #178

f430 wrote: post #95

Guo Wengui said back in September 2019 that "Jack Ma would be jailed or killed" on Kyle Bass's youtube channel. [1] At this point its not even a question of whether we will see Jack Ma in public again. Overnight he went from billionaire to peasantry. We've seen dozen cases like this: 1) Billionaire disappears or is "killed" 2) Billionaire's company becomes nationalized 3) Rinse & Repeat Everybody who isn't familiar w…

What benefit does the CCP get by owning Alibaba and Ant? Can't the CCP do whatever it wants anyway? Why does it need to own these companies? And aren't there a lot of negatives by taking over the largest IPO in history only a few months later???

It sends a message.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#259

Post by dredmorbius » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 8:37 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #187

whimsicalism wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have serious issues with China. But I also think that there are lessons to learn from many different models. The ability of the government to take on actors with vast amounts of private capital is, in my view, one of those things worth learning from.

Only as a cautionary tale. A government that can silence a billionaire or take away his company for something short of a clear cut crime is too powerful.

When billionaires write the laws, and buy the politicians, police, prosecutors, judges, and executive, this is not the case.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#260

Post by eloff » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 8:37 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #188

eloff wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you know that makes him trustworthy? This is just a rumor spread by a single person at the point. Not very substantial at all. About as believable as when Sally at work says there's layoffs coming - but she's the receptionist.

Because I trust the reporters at RFA and RFA's long-earned reputation not to select Sally the receptionist as a credible source. That's the difference between bloggers and journalists. That's why I want to know who this person is, and why I asked the critic for more information about him. I trust RFA more than I trust some rando commenter on HN.

You also have to weigh that with how unusual the news is. The more unlikely the event the more credible the source would need to be.

This doesn't seem impossible knowing the CCP, but it would take more than a single source rumor before I'd consider it credible.