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The psychology behind ‘revenge bedtime procrastination’

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Re: The psychology behind ‘revenge bedtime procrastination’

#251

Post by eru »

strangegecko wrote: post #33
eru wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tried stimulants?

I haven't done a long-term trial. The only things that are legally available here are ritalin and modafinil (only if you have narcolepsy). I tried 5mg of ritalin 2 or 3 times, it made me work and think faster and with more focus, but it also felt jittery and I'm not sure it was all that pleasurable. So based on that and on worries about causing more long-term damage I haven't tried to take it longer. Maybe I should t…

I was suggesting to try stimulants, because some people have an underlying ADHD that's causing depression or anxiety etc as a comorbidity. And for those people the standard stimulants used to treat ADHD also help with their other symptoms.

I have ADHD, but never any depression. (But I have friends with those combinations.)

Your reaction to Ritalin matches mine to caffeine or dexamphetamine: the dose I get jittery at is lower than the dose were I see positive effects. Luckily, Ritalin/methylphenidate works fairly well for me with rather manageable side-effects.

By the way, I bet you have other options!:

Caffeine is universally available. But has a bad side effect profile.

You can get adrafinil over-the-counter, which is a chemical precursor to modafinil. See eg https://www.gwern.net/Modafinil

Nicotine is a wonder drug, too. Nicotine patches are available over-the-counter. See https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine (Please don't confuse nicotine with smoking. Smoking is still bad for you.)

I am taking methylphenidate, but for long term effects, I am actually seriously considering switching to nicotine patches:

Nicotine protects your brain against parkinson's, which runs in my family.

But in any case, from what you describe, it doesn't necessarily sound like your depression is linked to something that stimulants can help with in the first place?

Re: The psychology behind ‘revenge bedtime procrastination’

#253

Post by dorkwood »

otikik wrote: post #5

No mention of how to get out of this unhealthy habit. I'm struggling with this myself. Some of my conclusions so far: * When I am sleep-deprived I am less productive. So I spend more time doing "work". Then I have less time for everything else I want to do (family, cooking, sport). So I take more time away from sleep. And the cycle repeats. Sleep deprivation is self-perpetuating. * What I do at night, when I am exhau…

I think the answer lies in the sentence "people who don’t have much control over their daytime life refuse to sleep early in order to regain some sense of freedom during late-night hours". Now, obviously, very few people have complete control over their daylight hours -- we need jobs, after all. But we can still feel like we're in control if we at least agree with the path we're on. If you're struggling with 'revenge bedtime procrastination', consider whether you feel in control of the direction your life is heading, and if not, how you might wrest some of that control back.

Re: The psychology behind ‘revenge bedtime procrastination’

#254

Post by prawn »

tyre wrote: post #172
godot wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is for many other people it's not about enjoying work or not. I enjoy my job a lot, it's the best one I've had in the past decade. I also have a toddler. After I finish work promptly at 5 (sometimes before, and I work from home), it's a non-stop series of "work" bathing for the kid, either playing with the kid (while my spouse cooks) or I cook (and she plays with the kid, so either way it's busy work for bo…

When I read things like this, it makes me not want to have children. From friends, it doesn’t sound like your experience is much different. I’m sure you’re biased and it’s culturally unacceptable (to say the least) to say that you’d rather not have had kids, but I wonder how often you think about that loss of individuality? Maybe it’s that what you’d do were you to have the time wouldn’t be as “productive” in a broad…

I have three children aged 2-8 and my spare personal time is typically 9pm-2am. Yes, you lose a lot of freedom. Your routine is different, travel is different. But they're priceless and I would give up much more for any little moment with them.

It's worth mentioning that sleep routine discipline for the kids is worth working towards. Not being free until 11pm is just crazy. We have friends who sit/lie beside their kids for an hour or more until they get to sleep - insane.

Our kids are usually in bed at 7:30 and more often than not, we walk out after saying goodnight and don't hear from them until the morning. If the eldest struggles to get to sleep, he goes out to the living room to read for half an hour and then goes back, but it's nothing that would stop us watching TV elsewhere, working, doing dishes, etc. If the youngest sulks about sleep, being responsive/attentive and caving to demands will not help you in the future.

Doing dishes as you cook is worth it. Cooking more so you have leftovers for the next night is worth it. Combining routine with play (kids help cook, help clean, etc) is useful. Those little helpful things add up and buy you time.

Another one is, if date nights are difficult to schedule (or babysitting expensive), work from home on the same day as your partner or work a four day week, and then go out for lunch while the kids are in school/childcare.

Re: The psychology behind ‘revenge bedtime procrastination’

#255

Post by Ma8ee »

collyw wrote: post #118
hinkley wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of this is establishing a narrative that you will be less productive when burnt out than you are now, where you disappear an extra 20 minutes a day to be outside. There was a point where I was worried about my fitness, which reached its apex when I had a long commute and a stressful job. Some research was published that changed my life. Cardio improvement can be seen with 3x7 minute intervals, rather than the pr…

> Cardio improvement can be seen with 3x7 minute intervals, Where do you get those details from? Fitness and nutrition advice seem to change more often that the favoured JavaScript framework of the month.

> Fitness and nutrition advice seem to change more often that the favoured JavaScript framework of the month.

You are certainly right there. I think the problem is that the sizes of different effects rarely get reported. So a just significant study that showed a 4% improvement is reported as the new “truth” of the week.

But the fundamentals are the same and very simple. Almost all of us should eat more vegetables. Maybe raw kale is slightly better than tomatoes, but that effect is dwarfed by the effect of switching your french fries to tomatoes. Almost all of us should move more. Maybe 20 minutes is slightly better than 3x7, but that is nothing compared when you go from nothing to 3x7. And if 3x7 is what you actually have a chance to do, that is what you do.

So, for most of us, move more and eat more vegetables is what we have to remember. The rest is just noise.

Re: The psychology behind ‘revenge bedtime procrastination’

#256

Post by ramanova »

godot wrote: post #161
_9omd wrote: post #92

Everyone is talking about shifting time around by doing things like getting up earlier, but that doesn't get around a fundamental problem of not enjoying the working part of your day. You still have the same amount of time, just shifted to a different end, and maybe you're a bit better off that way, but it's still the minority of the day. The real solution is to figure out how to love a larger percentage of your day.…

The thing is for many other people it's not about enjoying work or not. I enjoy my job a lot, it's the best one I've had in the past decade. I also have a toddler. After I finish work promptly at 5 (sometimes before, and I work from home), it's a non-stop series of "work" bathing for the kid, either playing with the kid (while my spouse cooks) or I cook (and she plays with the kid, so either way it's busy work for bo…

It takes some practice, YMMV, but we made a rule to have them in bed by 8PM. You get solid 2h-3h for yourself every evening. It was harder with the first kid, but once they start going to kindergarten it changes. Once a week we invite a babysitter and go out :)

Re: The psychology behind ‘revenge bedtime procrastination’

#257

Post by watwut »

bigbonch wrote: post #229
toxik wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this sounds nice and good, the removal of generational living was completely intentional. Why? Because of the one thing you left out: it is the women who disproportionately end up taking care of the home and the children. There is no real feminism with this traditional system in place. Even with the modern setup, women take care of children more _even if they don't want to_, simply because nursing takes a lot o…

I don't have much of an opinion on generational living, but could you elaborate on how it guarantees women disproportionately end up with kin work? Also I find it interesting that the institution of motherhood is completely removed from the modern day narrative of empowerment. As long as it is fairly left up to the woman to choose, why would choosing motherhood not be empowering?

You choose motherhood by having kids. You choose fatherhood by having kids. Do you feel empowered by fatherhood? What does it even means? If no, then that is the answer of why would choosing motherhood not be empowering.

Empowering means: "make (someone) stronger and more confident, especially in controlling their life and claiming their rights". Having child does not really make that and I dont see how it should make that.

Re: The psychology behind ‘revenge bedtime procrastination’

#258

Post by watwut »

InitialLastName wrote: post #241
toxik wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this sounds nice and good, the removal of generational living was completely intentional. Why? Because of the one thing you left out: it is the women who disproportionately end up taking care of the home and the children. There is no real feminism with this traditional system in place. Even with the modern setup, women take care of children more _even if they don't want to_, simply because nursing takes a lot o…

I don't think multi-generational households necessarily need to put a heavier burden on women. In fact, my argument is exactly that households like that do a better job of allocating labor to those who are less able to earn. I don't think there's a real argument to be made that the nuclear household developed because of feminism. The New Deal and post-WWII policies that gave returning vets and their families cheap mo…

They do, because many grandparents will expect women to do more of traditional household and will treat her more badly or with more resentment if she does not.

Also, full time childcare is quite tiring for older people, grandparents who are strong enough are typically employed.

Re: The psychology behind ‘revenge bedtime procrastination’

#260

Post by fogetti »

umvi wrote: post #63
throwawayyipyip wrote: post #57

It may raise eyebrows, but with the current WFH culture, I simply take naps during work time. If I feel tired, then it's in my and my employers' best interest for me to nap since I will be much more productive for the next few hours. I've tested this also by not sleeping, and my code becomes worse and I need to rewrite a lot of it anyway. In fairness, I do try to go to bed on time, but my issue is that I sometimes on…

I'm not sure I completely agree with this logic because you are saying "if I neglect in personal time, then it is in my and my employer's best interests for me to address during work time (because otherwise I will be less productive)" However, X could be a wide range of things. To use an extreme example, I could neglect fixing my furnace during personal time, and thus I can do it on my employer's dime so that I don't…

But that's not what the comment says. He says he is not neglecting the bedtime and despite of that he cannot sleep enough. It can have a whole range of reasons why someone cannot sleep, many of them out of the commenter's control, so there cannot be any neglect whatsoever in any sense of the word in that case.
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