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A case for using punctuation in Slack

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Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#251

Post by vmception »

rgossiaux wrote: post #149
tyrantalope wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 20 and I've noticed how true this is. I find myself "code switching" depending on who I'm messaging at work. I've had a few profs that would the ellipsis for every single sentence, and my brain subconsciously treated his emails as mysterious. It's not too bad once you get used to it. There's also the weird thing of younger people like myself avoiding proper punctuation/capitalization for the aesthetic. Mainly bec…

>There's also the weird thing of younger people like myself avoiding proper punctuation/capitalization for the aesthetic. Mainly because a lack of proper writing can make certain messages feel more "relaxed" and casual, if that makes sense. I don't think it's weird at all, and I don't think it's simply aesthetic. All these things (punctuation, capitalization, emoji/emoticons, representations of non-verbal communicati…

> I do roll my eyes a little bit at some of the wild prescriptivism that can be found in this thread

the people gatekeeping language are the same people that don't understand why age discrimination happens

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#252

Post by crehn »

Bedon292 wrote: post #116
adjkant wrote: post #41

The message beyond the HN title actually has potential. However, the author focuses in some odd places for me. As far as punctuation, ending periods actually have negative emotion in text vernacular now for younger audiences and should almost never be used in 1-1 messaging. Exclamation points, commas, and question marks, great! For abbreviations, it's simply know your audience. You should use them when everyone in th…

I guess that is how I know I am getting old? I have never even heard of anyone thinking a sentence ending in a period is anything but normal. And I actually detest the use of exclamation points. They are almost always unnecessary. And I probably read too much into them, as opposed to others doing the same on periods. It is interesting though. Looking back at chat history. If I am not writing multiple sentences, and e…

My attempt at explaining why periods at the end feel uncomfortably stiff in a Slack-like environment:

Social conversations are fluid and open-ended, with participants organically shifting between listening and speaking. A period however conveys finality, which is off-putting in such a human setting.

For example, “No.” sounds like the very stern “No” of someone who’s not willing to listen or discuss any further.

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#253

Post by thomasahle »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #250
Bedon292 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess that is how I know I am getting old? I have never even heard of anyone thinking a sentence ending in a period is anything but normal. And I actually detest the use of exclamation points. They are almost always unnecessary. And I probably read too much into them, as opposed to others doing the same on periods. It is interesting though. Looking back at chat history. If I am not writing multiple sentences, and e…

I feel that negative emotion from periods on the last sentence (especially for messages that are only one sentence). So if you’re wondering what age range feels that way, you can consider 30 years old your upper bound :) I disagree about receiving multiple messages in a row. To me, composing longer messages (especially with multiple paragraphs) feels much more formal; it’s like writing an email or a letter rather tha…

> it’s like writing an email or a letter rather than having a conversation.

I don't like having a conversation over text. It feels inefficient, and I have to be on my phone more than I want to.

I prefer the "couple of paragraphs" format of HN, where you think through your message, and maybe edit a bit, before you send.

I'm also 30 ;-)

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#254

Post by Zecc »

lapetitejort wrote: post #71
adjkant wrote: post #41

The message beyond the HN title actually has potential. However, the author focuses in some odd places for me. As far as punctuation, ending periods actually have negative emotion in text vernacular now for younger audiences and should almost never be used in 1-1 messaging. Exclamation points, commas, and question marks, great! For abbreviations, it's simply know your audience. You should use them when everyone in th…

I regularly use sad emojis when I let my boss know I just screwed something up in production. For celebrations we use giphy.

Here's hoping your screwups in production become less regular. :)

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#255

Post by Zecc »

jhayward wrote: post #188
adjkant wrote: post #41

The message beyond the HN title actually has potential. However, the author focuses in some odd places for me. As far as punctuation, ending periods actually have negative emotion in text vernacular now for younger audiences and should almost never be used in 1-1 messaging. Exclamation points, commas, and question marks, great! For abbreviations, it's simply know your audience. You should use them when everyone in th…

I am astounded that anyone thinks that adding emojis can solve anything related to clarity of communication. We might as well be interpreting Egyptian cartoushes, for the lack of clarity involved.

It's funny because we can't tell whether your comment is sarcastic or not.

I like to think you've done it on purpose.

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#256

Post by conradev »

Bedon292 wrote: post #131
tashoecraft wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you're writing small, short sentences, there is something off putting about periods. It's just part of the how text based communication has become. Emojis are good because words can be interpreted with a tone that was unintended, and can lead to all sorts of communication problems. It's small and simple, but an appropriate emoji helps convey our emotions in a way that is more difficult to in short, text based me…

I always attempt to write, even on Slack or other chat programs, in such a way that no unintended tone comes across. To me it feels like I have failed in communicating if an emoji is necessary to convey a message. I honestly cannot think of anywhere I could use them to make a message clearer. But, I will be asking a few folks if there is an issue with my communication, and if I can be more clear in any way. Including…

Comparing Slack to email, in an email I generally provide a feedback sandwich: start with a positive note or warm introduction, transition into a call to action with explanatory details, and again end on a positive note.

In Slack I find that I can use emoji in lieu of some of the positivity, if that makes sense.

If I have any takeaway from this conversation it is that I should use _more_ emoji simply because a lot of emotional context is being lost through the internet. I feel like this is especially important because I manage people and my tone can really matter.

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#257

Post by greggyb »

pertymcpert wrote: post #240
greggyb wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or it's like you're ending a sentence the way you always do. I think it's like that.

Someone explained to you something you don't know, and you respond like this. Shameful.

What was explained that I haven't encountered before? My original post in this thread clearly states that I have come across the phenomena before, and that I have explored it with multiple people.

You assume someone doesn't understand something, because they hold an opinion different than yours. And you judge moral character for making a joke online. And elsewhere in this thread, you are attempting to police my behavior and tell me when it is okay for me to speak.[0] Despite this, you clearly feel yourself to have the moral high ground over me.

Regardless of what you might think or believe, I evaluate my prior replies in light of every response, even yours. Will you evaluate your officious tone and domineering attitude?

[0] Specifically, not now, after you have determined I do not understand. How am I to learn if a demonstration of ignorance (or at least that indicates such to you) is a prompt to stop talking?

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#258

Post by jhayward »

bccdee wrote: post #239
jhayward wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am astounded that anyone thinks that adding emojis can solve anything related to clarity of communication. We might as well be interpreting Egyptian cartoushes, for the lack of clarity involved.

Ok, but how do you feel about this? A laughing emoji would let us know that you think it's funny that people are this inarticulate, although it'd be a touch condescending. An eye-roll emoji would indicate a frustration with the problem, suggesting that it personally affects you in some way — perhaps your relatives are using too many emojis and it irritates you personally. A frown emoji, meanwhile, would suggest a mor…

I appreciate the response, and the emphasis on adding emotional context in a shorthand. However:

- There are over 3,000 emojis defined in unicode, which is a very large vocabulary in which to become expert.

- There is no well-defined meaning for any of the emojis, even the "simple" common ones. One must try to infer from shared context what the sender means. This is fraught with error opportunities.

- They mean different things to different subgroups, and act as an "in-group" credential in many cases.

- They are visually very indistinct, and can be difficult to distinguish one from another for people who have less than perfect vision, or color-blindness.

- For people with autism or other non-neurotypical processing they can be completely unintelligible, rendering the communication even less successful than "traditional" language.

In short, emojis are undefined, colloquial, designed for only a small portion of the population, and have constantly shifting interpretations of a vast dictionary of symbols.

I don't know why that's a good idea for improving the clarity of communication.

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#259

Post by jhayward »

rsfern wrote: post #228
jhayward wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am astounded that anyone thinks that adding emojis can solve anything related to clarity of communication. We might as well be interpreting Egyptian cartoushes, for the lack of clarity involved.

Seriously? I wonder how you feel about “/s” and similar? There are plenty of uses of emoji that don’t add clarity, but I think it’s a bit much to say they can’t be used in a way that adds clarity at all.

I've expanded on my objections a bit in a sibling comment, but to address "/s": it doesn't have many of the emoji drawbacks.

It is literal shorthand for a well-defined word whose definition can be found. It is visually distinct, and follows the centuries of typographical design we use to acquire written symbols. And it refers to a well-known concept.

So I have no objection to it.

Of course there are some symbols which are easier to visually acquire, and seem to refer to well-defined concepts. But even the various smileys are unintelligible as to their meaning when taken as a group.

So once one gets off the basic "smiling face/thumbs up/thumbs down" subset I'd say it is a disaster for communication in a professional setting, and is exclusionary in a way that its proponents actually want it to be - as an in-group indicator that makes them feel a part of something that "others" are not.

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#260

Post by [deleted] »

swimfar wrote: post #34
danpalmer wrote: post #17

Clarity in communication is undervalued. Things like punctuation are a great start, but we can go even further. Avoiding acronyms where possible is often good for this, particularly if you can build a culture where asking people to expand acronyms happens. A tough side-effect of this I've seen though is the possibility of excluding some non-native English speakers, both in terms of making it harder for them to consum…

I think the goal should not be to lower the standards for everyone, it should be to help bring people up to the basic standards. The more often people write informally, the more difficult it is for non-native speakers to learn correct grammar. I almost always use full sentences and correct punctuation in all forms of communication. But I make sure to always write correctly when I'm communicating with non-native speak…

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