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I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

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Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

perhaps ironic, but can you help me understand why the GP comment was downvoted on this thread? I’m genuinely wondering. (the one from throwaway_pdp09) I’m definitely happy that there’s minimum Karma for downvotes, but how does it prevent hive-mind downvoting?

At a guess, it's a post that implies a sort of soft conspiracy with very little evidence. It just doesn't contribute a whole lot of value to the subject at hand, except for attempting to foment a vague sense of wrongness.

I'm the poster of that. Regarding evidence, I copied bits from the HN guidelines, said that downvotes are OK if I know why cos they bring benefit, then got silently downvoted. Is that not evidence enough? BTW I can't downvote myself. It was an honestly made critique and suffered from exactly what I protested against.

If I was wrong, your response does not elucidate why, in fact let me quote bits back to you "soft conspiracy" ... "very little evidence"[0] ... "a vague sense of wrongness"

Well maybe but your post has less substance than mine.

[0] you didn't ask for any BTW

Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#252

The Twitter thread has a lot more. There's a person or firm who is doing black-hat content marketing at scale. They either approach freelance bloggers to write articles about their clients (to be submitted to Medium-hosted and similar blogs as if written by unaffiliated users), or create Medium profiles for fake names and write the posts themselves. Posts have appeared in Better Programming, DEV.to, FAUN, freeCodeCam…

It'd be interesting if we could train AI to spot fake accounts. A good sized sample would be lovely...

It would also be interesting if we could convert lead into gold. Technically true, but not a novel observation, and an incredibly difficult problem.

Edit: specifically, none of the interesting parts of this problem/idea are in the phrasing - the only thing to do is just go out and implement it, and that's very difficult because (1) you're essentially trying to solve the Turing Test ("is this a computer or a human?") (2) most of the techniques that you might use to heuristically make this determination can either (a) be defeated very easily or (b) be defeated by another AI made using similar resources+techniques to those used to make the first.

Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#253
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, there's lots of gray area. But not disclosing a financial arrangement isn't illegal in itself. It's only in the last few years that Youtube even had an option to flag videos as "contains paid promotions", though now they do require that to be flagged if you're getting paid.

> But not disclosing a financial arrangement isn't illegal in itself. What is making you think this is true? It's not. For example 3/4 of the example cases here are around undisclosed financial arrangements in influencer marketing, and in all cases the company admitted fault: https://mediakix.com/blog/ftc-influencer-marketing-violation... I'm not sure what your definition of illegal is, but there is a law that the FT…

I'm referring to their guiding principal that disclosure is necessary when that disclosure might change how a consumer evaluates the review. If it is reasonable to think the disclosure would make no difference, then no disclosure is required. Though I'll admit that can be interpreted broadly enough to say that disclosure is always necessary.

Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#254
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, that's interesting! I think some of those things are going on. Other points I'm a little skeptical about—for example I don't believe that the left/right divide correlates as strongly with the US vs. Europe as you suggest. Many of the strongest leftist posts we see come from the U.S. and many of the strongest rightist posts come from Europe (to judge by IP geolocation). Your 'no synchronization' case is tri…

> that the left/right divide correlates as strongly with the US vs. Europe as you suggest. Right, talking about “right and left” was a mistake because the meaning of these words are pretty fuzzy and highly context-dependent. I'd give a more precise description then: Comments containing criticism of mainstream economics, references to Keynes, arguing that “all capitalism is crony capitalism” or “capitalism didn't defe…

[deleted]

Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from the content itself, I’ve noticed the commenting and voting patterns on Reddit for articles about AccessiBe are suspicious. I always assumed they had “help”. It’s a shame social media doesn't have a “this looks suspicious but I have no direct evidence” report button. I expect it’s very easy in a lot of cases to determine abuse when you have access to internal data.

They don't have a report button like that because competitors would abuse it to flag stuff.

People who would do that can abuse the existing report buttons. I’m talking about the case where a normal person would think “well, it’s not obvious spam so I can’t report it as spam, but I think that if somebody looked at the data, they would see abuse”.

Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#256
post #233
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, so people are paying for upvotes, sock puppets accounts etc. but it doesn't work ? :o

That doesn't follow (because "most of the stuff on top of HN" is a much stronger claim than what you said here) but I'm happy to answer anyway. The answer is that it frequently doesn't work. What we don't know is how many other cases there are where people are getting away with it. We can't know that; by definition, we're never going to know it. Even there, though, one can make educated guesses, based for example on…

Yeah, you are right. Sorry, I exaggerated there, HN is the best mainstream source for technical stuff honestly.

Still many posts that make it to the top feel like commercial advertisement and I am pretty sure they use (their?) sock puppets to get the first upvotes to cheat the algorithm.

It's easy to create 20 accounts and just switch between them (and IP) when you do your normal HN procrastination to validate them and then get those initial 20 upvotes to go up to the top.

Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#257
I'm the OP. It's been about a week since my tweets. As most of us know, some sites are intentionally filled with promoted garbage (Forbes contributors, a lot of Quora and dZone, etc.).

Many blog maintainers/curators really are trying to be transparent, though, including most or all of the ones I mentioned. They either don't want content that was paid for or will only consider it when they know about it and it's disclosed to readers. For those blog maintainers/curators, here's a few thoughts:

* I think the generalization here are probably that if an author links words/phrases other than a company's name to a company Web site (like linking a type of product or the problem that the company solves), a curator should be more suspicious of the submission. It probably should be changed to link to an editor-chosen neutral discussion of that topic, like a Wikipedia page, trade group, or RFC.

About 2/3rds of the posts that I suspect had a conflict of interest would have stood out this way. For example, one post links "usability testing" to a company. That should stand out during review, regardless of the company or author.

I'd also be suspicious of posts that have more than 1 link to any company. Obviously it could be totally innocuous, but it's unusual and generally unnecessary.

* Don't blindly trust my assessment or the list of companies I provided. As with any random person on the Internet, I can't say authoritatively how any given post was motivated; I can only point to lots of people who are writing very similar things about the same few otherwise-unrelated companies. Each publisher will need to decide for themselves when a coincidence goes from unlikely to impossible.

The lesson here is probably to think about that for yourself: where do you draw the line? Would you prefer to err on the side of false negatives, false positives, or exercising editorial discretion (allowing the article but removing parts about specific companies)?

* I strongly recommend _against_ penalizing authors who are in developing countries.

I think the content marketing firm made victims out of the authors in developing countries. At best, they thought they were providing a real service to the public. At worst, they thought they were making good money doing something that might be a bit shady, but is common in their area. I have no reason to think they knew about the after-the-fact promotion.

(Authors in developed countries like the US - which includes all of the suspected made-up authors - obviously shouldn't be doing this and probably know it. Different rules apply.)

Moreover, someone in a developing country has limited opportunities for career growth and visibility (and some authors clearly have technical talent). I don't think this should justify taking those opportunities away. For example, I do not suggest refusing future articles from these people or otherwise limiting their distribution. Perhaps their future submissions need tighter review or can't be about specific companies/products, just technologies, but it's important that they still have this avenue.

Good luck.

Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#258
These are the same people who made dedicated effort to trick Lobsters users into giving them invites so they could spam our site back around the start of 2020: https://lobste.rs/s/utbyws/mitigating_content_marketing

If they're still spamming for LoadMill eight months later, that strongly implies to me that the clients know what they're getting and are OK with the tactics.

Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#259
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious, but what constitutes evidence in this context? And how do you deal with the other side of "unfair" behaviour, e.g. excessive flagging or downvoting for legitimate posts or comments. As far as I'm aware there isn't any evidence required to downvote or flag.

By evidence I mean something in some data somewhere that's more than just the opinion being posted, which we can look at and evaluate objectively. I know that's a bit of a lame answer, but I can't give you specific examples without giving the same examples to others who would want to circumvent leaving evidence in that way. The main thing to understand is that we need something to look at other than just an opinion t…

Here's some logs + a writeup of when they spammed Lobsters on behalf of LoadMill: https://lobste.rs/s/utbyws/mitigating_content_marketing

My first name @push.cx if you want to share notes on these or other abusive users.

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