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Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

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Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#251

Post by simonh »

mrwnmonm wrote: post #230
simonh wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has no say in the internal politics of Egypt, or any Arab countries. The most the West can do is stand by watching in horror, wringing our hands. When we do get mired in it, as with Iraq, the limits of our actual ability to direct change becomes painfully apparent very quickly.

The west, the most powerful civilization in history, stand by watching in horror. Are you serious? I don't have links or videos saved with me right now, but I am an Egyptian and followed all of what happened. I can get it if I wanted, but it will take time. But I think you can easily find it. Listen to professor Chomsky's lectures for example. As far as I remember, this one ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLPYN82xH…

Ive seen that one already, and just listened to some of it again s a quick refresher.

Chomsky does accuse the US government of not wanting a democratic government in Egypt, but doesn't actually blame them for the failure of the Morsi government. Instead he blames his friends in the left Liberal movement of Egypt for supporting the Military coup.

As for Obama fudging the question of whether it was a coup, that's exactly the useless after the fact hand-wringing I'm talking about. At that point the coup was a done deal.

It may even be true that western leaders prefer to deal with Middle Eastern autocrats, but (a) when given the opportunity that's not what they set up in Iraq. And (b) they don't actually get to decide who rules any Arab countries anyway. Even in Iraq which they conquered, because they handed that decision over to the electorate.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#252

Post by kalenx »

feralimal wrote: post #205
kalenx wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be careful in bringing up "open mindedness". If the most compelling thing you can say about your position is that "it is so weird and obtuse that only true open minds will not reject it", I'm not sure you're making a point here... > But, I see science as an individual's pursuit. I really mean it when I say that science is something one should verify personally. Sure. But you can't. You literally can't. And since you…

Surely it is possible, and costs nothing, to listen to another point of view. Surely testing what you know against a contrary opinion can only be a positive experience. > > But, I see science as an individual's pursuit. I really mean it when I say that science is something one should verify personally. > Sure. But you can't. You literally can't. And since you can't, it means, given this sentence, that you consider al…

> Surely testing what you know against a contrary opinion can only be a positive experience.

Trivial counterexample: if I repeat "you are an [insert your favorite insult here], what you say is false" again and again, which can be considered a "contrary opinion", you will not have a positive experience.

> Yes, but when you haven't verified, you can't say you know. You literally can't. You believe.

How are you sure that your senses provide you with an accurate representation of the world? You can't. So you believe they do. And you thus know nothing at all. See how easy it is to come up with these broad judgments which, while interesting from a philosophical point of view, are totally useless in practice?

That's my point: I have no issue discussing cartesian doubt, for example. But this does not imply at all the science to be invalid, wrong, or the same as a religion: that's the pitfall you're in.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#253

Post by rsynnott »

thisiscorrect wrote: post #248
rsynnott wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

National identity. Colonialism tended to produce totally novel countries, and often who was put in charge was largely random. It’s not just a colonialism thing either; in Europe wars often resulted in territorial change; the territory was then the cause of the next war.

Could you elaborate? In both Ireland's and Korea's cases, despite their relatively small size, both nations have notable scientific output. What's different about them?

Both do NOW. In Ireland’s case, honestly, we probably have the EU, a massive stabilising influence, to thank for that, along with treaties that make the border a day-to-day non-issue (you can walk across it without noticing). In the case of Korea, the opposite happened; the border became so fixed due to external influence that there wasn’t much anyone could do about it.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#254

Post by filterbubble »

29athrowaway wrote: post #71

The Islamic Golden Age is the true cause behind the European Reinassance. 1) Introduction of paper. 2) Latin translations of the 12th century from Toledo and Sicily, former Islamic territories. 3) Higher education (Madrasas -> Universities) 4) Philosophical reforms of the church that made science legal (Averroism -> Scholasticism), paving the way to Secularism.

I've been saying this for years. At the risk of hyperbole, it's not an accepted explanation bc teaching such in school would be tantamount to saying something other than Western culture has value.

Can down voters please explain why you disagree? (Unless hn is just overrun with deluded brainwashed lunatics.)

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#255

Post by mrwnmonm »

simonh wrote: post #251
mrwnmonm wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The west, the most powerful civilization in history, stand by watching in horror. Are you serious? I don't have links or videos saved with me right now, but I am an Egyptian and followed all of what happened. I can get it if I wanted, but it will take time. But I think you can easily find it. Listen to professor Chomsky's lectures for example. As far as I remember, this one ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLPYN82xH…

Ive seen that one already, and just listened to some of it again s a quick refresher. Chomsky does accuse the US government of not wanting a democratic government in Egypt, but doesn't actually blame them for the failure of the Morsi government. Instead he blames his friends in the left Liberal movement of Egypt for supporting the Military coup. As for Obama fudging the question of whether it was a coup, that's exact…

I didn't talk about the failure of the Morsi government, that is highly controversial.

I am saying that they supported the coup before it even happens. They communicated with the military before the coup, giving them the green light to do it.

As I said, I didn't save the sources, but I know what I have read. But I can't ask you to believe me in that case.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#256

Post by disease »

sasaf5 wrote: post #178

Undoing the clickbait: After many paragraphs telling that the reason is not simple, it finally centers in occasionalism. > At the heart of Ash’ari metaphysics is the idea of occasionalism, a doctrine that denies natural causality. Put simply, it suggests natural necessity cannot exist because God’s will is completely free. Ash’arites believed that God is the only cause, so that the world is a series of discrete physi…

I'll admit to not having read the full article, but would a belief like this make the assumption that God's will could even overrule logic itself. Could God will 2 + 2 = 5? How would you rationalize this? Or perhaps the point is to irradiate rationality.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#257

Post by dx87 »

thisiscorrect wrote: post #240
rsynnott wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Japan went from insular agrarianism to a world power to collapse to continued scientific development through to the 21st century. As did much of the Far East. Why not the Middle east? There are lots of theories, of course, but one I find interesting is that East Asia, in addition to never being colonized to the same extent as most places, emerged with national boundaries largely intact. The Middle East was under fo…

Is this claiming that ethnic diversity within a country's borders causes strife, and in turn hinders scientific development?

Not ethnic diversity, but lack of a shared identity. Outside of the major cities, the people living in the middle eastern countries were more loyal to their tribe and village than whatever power happened to currently be in charge of the country. That's also why it seems like so much religious extremism comes out of the middle east; a shared religion is one of the only things in common among the people living there, so any calls to action normally use religion as common ground to bring people together.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#258

Post by mrwnmonm »

simonh wrote: post #251
mrwnmonm wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The west, the most powerful civilization in history, stand by watching in horror. Are you serious? I don't have links or videos saved with me right now, but I am an Egyptian and followed all of what happened. I can get it if I wanted, but it will take time. But I think you can easily find it. Listen to professor Chomsky's lectures for example. As far as I remember, this one ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLPYN82xH…

Ive seen that one already, and just listened to some of it again s a quick refresher. Chomsky does accuse the US government of not wanting a democratic government in Egypt, but doesn't actually blame them for the failure of the Morsi government. Instead he blames his friends in the left Liberal movement of Egypt for supporting the Military coup. As for Obama fudging the question of whether it was a coup, that's exact…

And what did Obama say (then do) about this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_2013_Rabaa_massacre

I know that there are a lot of people in the west who are honest about their values. But we don't see that at all from the governments. So don't blame us thinking that the US never cared about their values.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#259

Post by rcxdude »

feralimal wrote: post #34

Ha ha - primitive Islamic religionists!! Only we are exactly the same, but are blind to our failings. This narrative plays on our conceited, flabby, unreasoned thinking. But its nice to laugh to others, eh? Science to me, is the application of the scientific method. This is to say that whatever is being looked at should be repeatable, and consistently provide the same results. Strictly speaking, when we say we know,…

'no-one' verifying is too steep. Many people test many results from science all the time. I've personally followed and tested many papers because their claimed results were useful to me. Sometimes they aren't correct, or at least I am not able to verify them as such. More fundamental ideas are put to the test every time I design something, and they have held very strong in my experience. Equivocating religion with science by raising your standards so high they are impossible to meet in practice is disingenious, especially when one stands up to far more testing than the other. I agree that we need more critical thinking in this world, especially from the general public, but when you retreat to deciding nothing is verified because you have not seen or understood it directly and personally, you retreat in another direction which is just as useless and potentially harmful.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#260

Post by vmh1928 »

leftyted wrote: post #243
mrwnmonm wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has that because the US accepts and supports that development. They won't allow that in the islamic countries.

Israel does not have successful academic institutions because of the US. They built it themselves. The theory that the US "does not allow" the establishment of academic institutions in Islamic countries is equally wrong. edit - There is a common attitude among Arabs (evident in this poster's comments in this thread) that everything bad in Arab countries is due to some combination of the US and Israel. One of my teach…

Jewish culture has always had a deep respect for and encouragement of intellectual development. The Islamic world may have had that in the past but it's been heavily suppressed by the spread and rise to power and influence of more extreme and rigid forms of that belief system. In Israel, if the extreme orthodox were in charge or had as much influence as extreme Islam, you'd probably find suppression of intellectual development.
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