Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

npr.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 324 posts

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#251

Post by bufordtwain »

TJSomething wrote: post #129
bit_logic wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking about this more, wasn't there a time, maybe late 90s early 2000s when the message was that plastic is more environmental than paper? Something like at the supermarket checkout you should pick plastic over paper bags to save rain forest trees? Is my memory wrong or was this a widespread message at the time?

From a global warming perspective, plastic bags are generally better for the environment because they are extremely light, therefore use less gas to ship. However, plastic bags often end up in nature, where plastic particles end up in animals and plants.

I saw a bird nest once that the bird had lined with shredded bits of plastic bag to reinforce it.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#252

Post by blablabla123 »

yodsanklai wrote: post #13
schoen wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I took a German course, my textbook had a section something like "was machen Sie für die Umwelt?" ('what do you do for the environment?'), and the first example answer in dialogues was always "Müll trennen" (sorting kinds of trash for recycling). It was amazing what a cultural force this habit seems to have for many Germans. I still remember that one of the textbooks even started an answer with "natürlich…

> It was amazing what a cultural force this habit seems to have for many Germans. I'm not asking maliciously, but I wonder how Germans reconcile their seemingly environmental awareness with their high CO2 emissions and big cars culture.

German here, I don't think separating trash is necessarily considered an act to help the environment. It's somehow part of the culture and brings additional benefits: easier storage (e.g. you can place an open paper bin in the living room and it won't rot) and recycling containers that are picked up by the city are cheaper than the mixed waste containers. People with gardens can even save more money by maintaining their own organic waste there.

Also in many cities there is no separate container for consumer packaging - instead one can put it in a yellow plastic bag that is put on the street for pick-up. Same for recycling of bottles, you cannot really opt-out, it's more expensive to not recycle them.

Of course there are also a lot of people that do all this for the environment though.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#253

Post by nemo44x »

realityking wrote: post #219
nemo44x wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I live they are mainly banned as well and if you don’t bring your own bags then you have to pay a small tax for paper bags. I’m mainly ok with this since we drive to the store and can plan ahead. It’s a bit annoying when you go somewhere on the way home though and don’t have them with you. If the money was being used to actually fund proper recycling I wouldn’t care but it’s probably being used to pay off inter…

This is an argument that comes up often, e.g. gas tax should be used for roads. The misconception is that it sees taxes only as a means of generating revenue to offset the cost or externalities of what’s being taxed. But taxes are also important in steering behavior. In this case by forcing bags to To be non-free (and not allowing stores to compete by advertising free bags) it incentivizes folks to start bringing the…

Except for all the new little fees and taxes are being used to pay off pension debt, etc. I’d complain less if my local taxes were better being used to serve the community rather than pay a 50 year olds pension that moved off to a state without income tax. A pension that was agreed to by the crooked pols that got elected by the same public unions they had to “negotiate” with.

I agree about steering behavior and I think it should be used more often rather than bans on things.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#254

Post by randcraw »

m463 wrote: post #229

A friend - a chemical engineer - worked on a plastics recycling project years ago (90's) They worked on recycling plastic, but the problem was: - it was very expensive to clean the plastic - even when the plastic was cleaned, it could only be mixed with virgin plastic at a very small ratio - single digit percentages - even the small ratio would weaken the plastic considerably. Think laundry baskets which are flexible…

It seems like it ought to be possible to 'refine' used plastics into a clean product. It just won't be as cheap as creating virgin plastic. But at a public policy level, who cares that recycling adds cost? So does NOT recycling, of course.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#256

Post by hailwren »

saagarjha wrote: post #163
ced wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared to other developed countries they are not the worst. Australia: 16.8 tons/capita/year Canada/US: 16.1 Germany: 9.1 China: 8.0 France: 5.0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...

Why does France do so much better?

Probably poverty and industry. Germany has more industry and has historically had a stronger economy. So, that probably leads to lifestyles that promote more energy use.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#257

Post by randcraw »

GhostVII wrote: post #56

I'm not convinced that it's actually a bad thing to dump plastic and paper into a landfill. You just cover it up with dirt and plants every 20 years and build a new one, pretty low impact as long as you have it properly sealed off. Even gets rid of some CO2. Probably better than putting lots of energy into recycling when it isn't actually efficient to do so.

You're not convinced... because you understand the component costs and you believe they add up favorably? Or you don't know and don't care?

The answers to your suggestion start with knowing the volume of plastic, time to degrade, degradation byproduct toxicity, and alternative 'recycling' methods and their costs.

There's also clear evidence that the 'current' model and practice for plastic disposal (that you endorse) is NOT safe and effective. Until you can suggest how to fix its demerits, it's unhelpful to blithely suggest we just keep doing it.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#258

Post by stevep98 »

ppf wrote: post #140
rapnie wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't the remaining waste be efficiently used to generate energy in a waste incinerator? They are still high-energy oil products after all, and no longer mixed in with all kinds of wet biomass.

Exactly what I've been saying for years. Public perception of incinerators is pretty poor though.

Japan does this.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#259

Post by randcraw »

esturk wrote: post #101
fmajid wrote: post #7

Yes, it’s a scam. Only aluminum actually gets recycled. It’s time to tax plastic so companies start using paper products (even if they go to landfill, they will at least sequester carbon there) or aluminum.

That's not true at all. The more valuable something is, the more likely it'll be recycled. Take cars for example. The entire frame is recycled. The motor oil gets recycled. The lead battery gets recycled. Heck, Tesla's ex-CTO recognized the business potential for EV car batteries and started a company for it. There are plenty of hidden arbitrage opportunities out there for recycling.

For the past 50+ years, frames have been integrated with bodies on all cars and some trucks (unibody). The exterior shell of car bodies is a mix of materials, including plastic. The interior shell of body interiors contain very little that's recyclable without an ambitious amount of disassembly that would be very costly. I don't see car recycling happening until something like another world war makes it worth the effort.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#260

Post by peter303 »

Its a similar situation with clothing and furniture donation. 90%+ goes to the dump or international rag merchants. If it doesnt appear to have immediate resale value- easy to unpack, in style, gently used, clean- they dont want it. I watched the back lot of a national donation chain beginning with the letter G. Most of donations are immediately chucked into a number of trash bins. At least it makes me feel less guilty in trying to recycle stuff.
Post reply on HN