The Programmer Salary Taboo • Hacker News Board

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#251

Post by danssig » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 10:21 AM UTC

billpaetzke wrote: post #127

MrFoof wrote: post #62

Salaries never stay secrets forever. Hiding them only delays the inevitable. Last year we were having a discussion at lunch. Coworker was building a new house, and when it came to the numbers it was let loose that it was going to cost about $700K. This didn't seem like much, except to a young guy that joined the previous year and had done nothing but kick ass and take names. The new guy was arguably the most talented…

and his bonus nearly matched the new guy's salary, which was an insulting $60K Is it common to get ~$60k yearly bonus as a programmer? Was this for a finance-industry job? All I've seen (either myself or others) so far is a few hundred dollars to a few thousand.

Avoid bonus systems. Bonus systems do not work out well for non-executives. Look at the story again: the kid made out better than anyone because his $175/hr is his for as many hours as he works no matter how the company performs that year. He gets his "bonus" every hour he works. The senior dev has a whopping 30% of his yearly comp tied up in a nebulous bonus that probably gets paid out far enough into the next year that he's already earned about half of his next bonus by the time he actually gets it (i.e. makes leaving expensive).

The bonus system was originally set up for high up executives to tie their comp more exactly to company performance since they are responsible for it. As a dev you are not responsible for company performance. Are you able to sack the sales team if you feel that they're not competent? Are you able to change company direction? You can't be responsible for something you have no ability to change. People saying you do are just manipulating you to their own advantage.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#252

Post by gaius » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 10:24 AM UTC

lukev wrote: post #63

okaramian wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that when you're hiding salaries you can't really evaluate the market. Really by hiding that information you're giving the salary giver most of the power and those shopping around for a higher salary need to do a lot more work to evaluate how much they're worth on the market. I mean if Joe is doing half the work I'm doing, shouldn't he get paid significantly less? You're kind of attacking this from an…

Does the market really matter if I'm happy with what I'm being paid? That's ultimately the motivation for my argument - in which system are the greatest number of actors likely to be content?

Does the market really matter if I'm happy with what I'm being paid?

Sure it does. A portion of your happiness at work is down to the quality of people you work with, no? If your company routinely lowballs, then when the dust settles you are going to find yourself surrounded by people who had no choice but to accept that rate. The market therefore affects you whether you care about it or not.

Also, things change. Plenty of money to live on as a bachelor might leave you a bit short if you want to start a family. If you don't "need" the money right now, stick it in a savings account. Because remember this: someone is getting the value you create. Why shouldn't it be you?

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#253

Post by danssig » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 10:27 AM UTC

techiferous wrote: post #105

wging wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$175/hour * 40 hours/week * 50 weeks/year = $350,000/year, for anyone else (like me) who can't immediately estimate equivalent yearly rates.

But remember that there is non-billable work (accounting, etc.) and a 15.3% self-employment tax. And also remember that there are probably not 50 weeks of 40 hours/week at this company but rather short-term or part-time work. And you are paying for your own benefits. I've found a good (albeit a bit conservative) rule-of-thumb is to convert the hourly wage into the yearly salary. Working as a consultant for $175/hour…

Calling that pay rate $175K/yr is beyond conservative. Maybe if he's taking off 2 months a year for vacation (another benefit of contracting!).

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#254

Post by danssig » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 10:38 AM UTC

jhamburger wrote: post #42

psadauskas wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep the offer at 100K. If he's no better than the others, you can find another one. If you keep missing out on hiring because other companies pay more, then you need to raise your standard salary, because all your other engineers will jump ship within a year or two.

Well these engineers weren't savvy enough to figure out that they could make 110K right now. Who's to say they will in two years? Or maybe you just give them a raise to 110K in two years and they'll be happy with that and never figure out they're worth 125K now.

The parent said "if you're having problems filling the position". If you're having problems filling the position because other companies are paying more that's going to come out sooner or later.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#255

Post by danssig » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 10:49 AM UTC

shpxnvz wrote: post #147

kelnos wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never personally heard of a person getting upset upon discovering someone else's private salary. I have, on several occasions. I've been that upset person once, even. I know lots of people who are dissatisfied because they're obviously far more valuable than a peer at the same level, and lots of people who are resented because of their parasitism at a higher-level job. (This is in the government system, where sa…

If you're far more valuable than a peer but are being paid the same or less, you should be dissatisfied. Value is not only completely subjective, but almost always biased. Most people think they are more valuable than their peers, and most are wrong.

Then they should get unhappy, they should test the market and they should find out that they're wrong. Who knows, maybe they'll realize they need to step up their game.

I really hate this "just keep 'em dumb and happy" nonsense. We're not children (and you shouldn't treat children like that either).

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#256

Post by fsipie » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 11:03 AM UTC

How does this translate into UK salaries? I'm working at a medium sized company (approx £200 million turnover) and am a senior developer with 15 years experience in stuff like c++/c#/iphone/asp.net mostly MS stack and I'm getting paid £34k. I know I can go contracting for £40/hr but it's alot more hassle.

What are other people getting paid here in Blighty?

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#257

Post by smiler » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 11:05 AM UTC

fsipie wrote: post #256

How does this translate into UK salaries? I'm working at a medium sized company (approx £200 million turnover) and am a senior developer with 15 years experience in stuff like c++/c#/iphone/asp.net mostly MS stack and I'm getting paid £34k. I know I can go contracting for £40/hr but it's alot more hassle. What are other people getting paid here in Blighty?

With 15 years experience, you are underpaid.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#258

Post by akronim » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 11:08 AM UTC

fsipie wrote: post #256

How does this translate into UK salaries? I'm working at a medium sized company (approx £200 million turnover) and am a senior developer with 15 years experience in stuff like c++/c#/iphone/asp.net mostly MS stack and I'm getting paid £34k. I know I can go contracting for £40/hr but it's alot more hassle. What are other people getting paid here in Blighty?

http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/ is an excellent resource for the UK for this.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#259

Post by danssig » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 11:09 AM UTC

shangaslammi wrote: post #231

lukev wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the market really matter if I'm happy with what I'm being paid? That's ultimately the motivation for my argument - in which system are the greatest number of actors likely to be content?

This is my thoughts exactly. I'm happy with my salary because it enables me to live comfortably and purchase the things that I want. What other people make doesn't directly factor into it at all (not withstanding the fact that prices usually follow the average income, which affects my purchasing power). Comparing incomes and constantly thinking about what you _could_ be making just leads up to never being satisfied w…

>Comparing incomes and constantly thinking about what you _could_ be making just leads up to never being satisfied with any kind of salary in the long run.

I couldn't disagree more. The first career company I worked for, I got transfered up from a less-than-level-one position into a high end dev position through my own sweat [1]. Due to company policies about how much a maximum raise could be I found myself making less than 1/5th of what that position would normally get. For the first year or two I wasn't bothered because I didn't have too much experience. 5 years later when every piece of software we had deployed was my architecture, using my libraries, etc., etc. I started to be bothered seeing other people have all these possessions while being so frugal and getting no where. Even though I had no idea what other people were making, it was totally obvious I was getting screwed but I didn't know how badly. I didn't know what my market rate was.

Now as a contractor I know very closely what my market rate is because I get to test it at least twice a year (as opposed to once every 2-5 years before). I know what other contractors are making, I'm the lowest of my circle of friends or close to it. That doesn't bother me because we all do different things and they've all been contracting longer.

I know exactly where I stand and I see an obvious growth path and target. I have real (or at least the chance of it) feedback into where I stand instead of made up nonsense in some yearly meeting where your raise was set by someone you don't even know weeks ago and the things you have to "improve" on your yearly review are structured to justify it. Did my new contract rate go up, down or stay the same? Based on contacts and job ads, did I follow the market or diverge? If market rates went up and my rate didn't that's a real call to action. "Demonstrates acceptance of company vision - needs work" is not.

[1] Not trying to toot my own horn, others did as well. It was probably an artifact of how awful it was where we were.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#260

Post by danssig » Wed, Apr 13, 2011, 11:12 AM UTC

lukejduncan wrote: post #202

In Silicon Valley, is it expected that you'll negotiate an offer? If so, by how much? In general in Detroit, offers are final (clearly a generalization, but true of big co's).

This is a strange question. Of course most any company hopes you won't negotiate. What they expect is that you'll value yourself more than their initial offer and will negotiate.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe you about Detroit. I believe that you believe that, I believe companies tell you that but I unless all big Detroit companies only have very junior people I don't believe for one second that this is actually the case.