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Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

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Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#251

Post by srtjstjsj »

dragonwriter wrote: post #246
sushid wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CAs tax rate when you factor in federal tax is comparable to the EU and we get none of the benefits.

> CAs tax rate when you factor in federal tax is comparable to the EU Nominal rates might be, but tax burden is not. California tax burden is well under 15% GDP, and federal collections in the state are a tiny bit higher than state tax revenues, together still under 30% tax burden. EU overall tax burden is over 40% of GDP.

How do these numbers look when you count health care/insurance cost for CA instead of only for EU?

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#252

Post by justinmeiners »

sushid wrote: post #243
justinmeiners wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans are absolutely, utterly, unable to imagine that things they pay a percentage of all income earned, over their entire life, are not free. It's incredible to watch from outside.

CAs tax rate when you factor in federal tax is comparable to the EU and we get none of the benefits.

I agree, that state is a mess. I happen to live in state with low taxes and affordable school.

Perhaps the european model is better overall, or perhaps there are other complications. Regardless, the debate is not "free" vs "pay private companies". Both models have costs and benefits.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#253

Post by srtjstjsj »

plafl wrote: post #242
seibelj wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans are utterly unable to create new global enterprises at the rate of America and China, apart from a few odd balls like Spotify. Different places optimize for different things, for better and worse.

Europe is a collection of small countries. It's not coincidence that the economic powerhouse of Europe, Germany, is the most populated country. And since this is going quite off topic here is some wild idea: let's keep just a fraction of the current universities, like say 5 or 10%, force talent in Europe to concentrate in a few places, force mixing across nations. Actually this is already encouraged somehow but let's…

Whose fault is it that Europe has many small countries instead of being dominated by Germany the?

If the EU hadn't stopped its continent-scale genocidal domination, it could be on par with USA and China for linguiatic and economic unity.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#254

Post by srtjstjsj »

nemothekid wrote: post #135
silvestrov wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the cost to tax payers in Europe is less than what people in USA have to pay the college. This is because my University (in Europe) had no sport facilities whatsoever , not even a soccer field. It also had no dormitories, canteens, no fancy library, sport teams etc. It did teaching + research, and nothing else.

> had no sport facilities whatsoever, not even a soccer field. It also had no dormitories, canteens, no fancy library, sport teams etc. Sports teams and dorms are no where near the top of the ticket of University expenses. Many of the Ivies hardly invest in sports and still come with a 60k ticket. American private universities are more expensive because American universities hire more administrative faculty and pay t…

Ticket price has nothing to do with budget. The schools have endowments and scholarship for rich students to pay more while poor students pay less.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#255

Post by google234123 »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #247
pa7x1 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top European universities provide pretty good education pre-PhD level, in many cases the first 3-5 years in European schools is superior and more focused than the equivalent US curriculum. The first 1 or 2 years in US universities seem spent filling the gaps left by a mediocre High School education. US universities are then miles ahead of most European schools in their PhD programs bare a few exceptions (Oxford, Camb…

PhD programs in the US and elsewhere are often not directly comparable. Doing a PhD in the US typically involves 1-3 years still taking classes. Doing one in the UK means starting thesis-forming research immediately. Not really the same thing at all.

Most programs I've seen have students starting research immediately. Sometimes you might have a few months of rotations through different groups.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#256

Post by greedo »

robomartin wrote: post #125
travisporter wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this an associate's/technical degree? To be a successful engineer/doctor/lawyer, you need some non-STEM coursework for communication, ethics, or just to expand your view. To last point, many state colleges in the US let you transfer credits from a community/regional college easily, so you can save ~50%

While I do understand what you are saying, the educational deficit we are seeing is at the high school level. When I attended high school we had coursework on ethics, logic, philosophy, business, literature, languages, etc. The average high school graduate in the US is shamefully unprepared for life. My greater point is that adding $50K in non-STEM coursework as a graduation requirement is wrong. The other element of…

If you think bias and indoctrination are something that only developed "over the last several decades," you're mistaken. This has been the case of all universities, since time immemorial. And the swing to the left started in the Sixties (at least in the US).

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#257

Post by srtjstjsj »

BurningFrog wrote: post #237
Dannymetconan wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities in Europe are generally high quality and low cost. It does have it's problems but it is not one or the other. You do not need a degree 30 years ago to do lots of jobs that now require one. Higher education for a lot of organizations is just an easy way to cut the application stack down

> You do not need a degree 30 years ago to do lots of jobs that now require one This is part of the problem. Stop demanding a formal degree for jobs, allow anyone who can do the job to do it, and much/some of these problems will go away.

The majority of people don't go to expensive private college for the degree , as that is available cheaper elsewhere. They go for the feeling of elitism.

Some of the worst money wasting colleges are the scam trade schools like University of "Phoenix".

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#258

Post by google234123 »

bawana wrote: post #89
jimhefferon wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Colleges are now awash in money It is not possible for me to overstate how very much this is not true at the college where I work, and at all colleges with which I have a personal connection.

Of course not. They ARE AWASH in income. They just figure out how to spend it fast. Fancy buildings, fancy retirement plans, outrageous administrative salaries.... For example the Chairman of UMASS Medical Center makes 2.3 million. The CEO of Harvard makes 9.25 million. How are these jobs an order of magnitude harder than the governor of Massachusetts. (salary 150K) Or harder than the US President (salary 400K). I ca…

Do you want to think the president of the US to be paid a fraction of GDP (like .1%)? Since technically he probably has at least that much impact. Comparing private and public salaries is silly. Hedge fund analysts make more than the governor of Mass, should they get a pay cut?

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#259

Post by bonoboTP »

noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

A lot of the cost of American college doesn't go towards education but things like sports stadiums and teams, various non-academic events, administrators, various other non-academic staff, uniquely-expensive American legal costs and insurance, on-campus police (a big wtf for Europeans), and then there are also those people who decide which Halloween costumes are appropriate for students, investigate various misconduct on campus etc.

Americans expect college campuses to be like resorts, parents expect a lot of pampering and personalized whatever for their kid etc. In Europe, university students are independent adults who take a bunch of courses, take exams etc, but have lives on their own, outside uni. They may rent a room in housing with connections to the university, but the university doesn't babysit them. They don't expect anyone else to keep tabs on what they need to do, no pampering. There is no customer mentality. You spare a lot of money this way.

So it's at least in part cultural and also reflects in different attitudes regarding healthcare, restaurants, retail, and general business conduct.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#260

Post by srtjstjsj »

pa7x1 wrote: post #195
georgeecollins wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are Universities in Europe really that high quality? Certainly some are, but as a parent researching schools I have been really surprised by how many European colleges are a bit mediocre by the criteria I was evaluating. For example, Spain and Italy have some of the oldest colleges in the world. But in many ways there are four or five colleges in California that are better, four or five colleges in Texas, and across…

Top European universities provide pretty good education pre-PhD level, in many cases the first 3-5 years in European schools is superior and more focused than the equivalent US curriculum. The first 1 or 2 years in US universities seem spent filling the gaps left by a mediocre High School education. US universities are then miles ahead of most European schools in their PhD programs bare a few exceptions (Oxford, Camb…

US college isn't longer because it's remedial, it's because it has more out of major liberal arts required courses.

There are a lot of remedial classes at US colleges, but those students wouldn't be in college at all in Europe.

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