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"Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

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Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#251

Post by Crespyl »

cryptoz wrote: post #195
amenod wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox has had development tools from way before Chrome even existed. They started as an (awesome!) Firebug extension, which they later included in the browser itself (not that it matters, but it was Chrome that basically copied them at the time).

Was looking for this comment! This is key here, because the story is extra sad given Mozilla/FF's initial strong surge in leader front-end developer tools. Before the Firebug extension I think I just did like View Source still from the menu? Yikes! Chrome copied it and at first IMO it wasn't nearly as good inside Chrome as in FF. But that did eventually change and for some years now I (sadly) agree I also prefer Chro…

> Mozilla/FF's initial strong surge in leader front-end developer tools

Back in the days when Mozilla put a focus on the needs of power-users and developers...

It's hard to pin down a single point where they dropped that ideal, but it's definitely long gone now.

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#252

Post by nitrogen »

zamadatix wrote: post #37
ChrisSD wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're refocussing on the user experience of the browser. They're stopping their more developer friendly endeavours and research projects such as servo. The VPN client and Pocket are just ways to make money to fund browser development. Firefox itself does not and can not make money (and not from lack of trying). It turns out people don't want "ads", "nags" or "suggested content" in their browser.

Firefox has always made the Lion's share of the income and Safari makes billions per year on the same Google search deal so the model did not disappear or change on them. What happened is Firefox usage share went down the drain (particularly due to mobile usage share being something like 0.5% but desktop isn't too hot either) so they can't negotiate the same deals they used to or cash in on the rising value of the se…

There's sort of a catch 22. There should have been a lawsuit against Google for their anticompetitive tactics for promoting Chrome, but you can't bite the hand that feeds you.

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#253

Post by runxel »

lucasmullens wrote: post #41
protomyth wrote: post #32

Firefox doesn't have the developer tools that Chrome does so developers use Chrome to develop with meaning their websites work better in Chrome so Firefox is playing catch-up or just plain looks worse keeping adoption of Firefox lower. Mozilla solves the problem by killing development of developer tools insuring Firefox is an afterthought. Is there anyone in Mozilla management that has a technical bone in their body?

I'm sure management understands those teams are important. Who should they have cut instead? These are hard decisions. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that management doesn't understand tech, they obviously do, it's Mozilla.

Well, I think nobody really got the punchline, huh?

Mozilla laid off nearly all their engineers – which are the ~250 people, who are A QUARTER of Mozilla. Wait what?

What for do they need so many people? Everybody who is not brainfried by corporate will agree that there are better options. But that is the faith of any organisation getting too big. The bureaucrats are taking over (think Boeing) and eradicate every single occurence of common sense. And of course greed and pride kicks in soon after. Not a single time has management ever fired management.

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#254

Post by blihp »

pkaye wrote: post #225
blihp wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason they keep going back to Google is they are willing to cut the biggest check. A few years back they tried kicking the Google habit... it didn't work. So barring new developments, Mozilla's prospects are significantly diminished should Google lose interest. Right now, it's apparently still worth half a billion a year to Google for the appearance of competition.

The amount is tied to the browser market share. Google also pays Apple for making them the default search. However Apple is able to command a lot more due its mobile market share for browsers.

There's also a premium Apple can charge due to being the gatekeeper on their platforms in addition to market share. Firefox will always be in a weaker negotiating position since they only offer market share.

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#255

Post by nullc »

portmanteaufu wrote: post #46
stu2b50 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They make 90% of their revenue from Google paying to have Google be the default web search on FF. A deal which is expiring in 2021 and hadn't yet been renewed.

The deal was renewed today[1], which makes the layoffs that much more baffling. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/barrycollins/2020/08/13/mozilla...

Maybe the layoffs were essential to the negotiation.

"Take our terms or you'll have to lay off people!" "Ha Ha. Hold my beer"

:)

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#256

Post by joepie91_ »

thomascgalvin wrote: post #34
rvz wrote: post #15

This shows that open-source in general is expensive for Mozilla but cheap for the likes of Apple, Microsoft and Google who own their own Web browsers and have other open-source programming languages maintained by some of their employees full time. The actual reality of this is that they are still kept alive by a direct competitor for decades and haven't made anything to generate significant sources of revenue. Maybe…

For Apple, Microsoft, and Google, their open source activities are all loss leaders for their profitable ventures. Apple sells hardware, and most of their software offerings, like MacOS, their office suite, and Safari, and given away to convince people to buy that hardware. Also, it's not like they're spending a whole lot of time making Sarafi the best browser around. Microsoft's web browser was created (and bundled)…

> Mozilla's open source efforts are/were a loss leader for ... nothing. Their work was motivated by altruism, not profit, and that turned out to be, well, not profitable. That's why they're pivoting; altruism alone wasn't enough to pay the bills.

Except it didn't turn out to be "not profitable". Leaving aside the issue of dependence on companies like Google and the frankly ridiculous exec compensation, all publicly available data shows that Mozilla is very financially healthy and has been for a long time.

The claim of financial issues is implied by the corporatespeak press release, but simply not supported by any evidence that I've seen.

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#257

Post by AsyncAwait »

mcqueenjordan wrote: post #196
steveklabnik wrote: post #111

Hi everyone, the Rust core team has been talking about making a statement on this, but I left this comment in a personal capacity yesterday: ------------------------ Mozilla employs a small number of people to work on Rust fulltime, and many of the Servo people contributed to Rust too, even if it wasn't their job. They also pay for the hosting bill for crates.io. They also own a trademark on Rust, Cargo, and the logo…

Totally agree, Rust will survive. AWS is investing heavily in Rust. If anyone who is reading this was affected by these layoffs and you want to continue to work in Rust, get in touch with me. We have many Rust opportunities open across the company on a variety of different teams.

Would AWS ever consider hiring someone full-time to work on the compiler itself?

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#258

Post by jlokier »

shawxe wrote: post #123

From many of the comments in this thread, one might think that FAANG companies invented the concept of open source software or that software doesn't exist outside the context of a "profit model." Whatever is going on at Mozilla right now, the notion that a piece of open source software even needs to be profitable (let alone supported by a single large company) in order to continue existing is ridiculous. I'll concede…

> invented the concept of open source software or that software doesn't exist outside the context of a "profit model."

To be fair, the existence of open source software that is very expensive to develop has always dependend on big companies paying for it.

Firefox could be funded by several companies in collaboration, but as of right now, do you know any collection of companies with deep pockets that aren't happy enough sending users to Chrome instead?

Re: "Much" of the Rust/Wasmtime team hit by layoffs at Mozilla

#259

Post by say_it_as_it_is »

mcqueenjordan wrote: post #246
capableweb wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any Rustaceans who have been working at Mozilla, have probably done so for the mission that Mozilla work on (publicly), not too earn a ton of money. Amazon/AWS, who's main goal is closed down infrastructure, is the opposite of that mission. Worth keeping in mind when trying to recruit people from the opposite spectrum of yourself.

Thanks for the feedback. I disagree with your premise and your characterizations, but that's what opinions are for! I believe the success of Rust, as a technical goal, can transcend the business goals of whatever organization uses it. Solidifying the future of Rust is a noble goal, and it would be a huge win for our industry.

It could be a major win if layoffs result in a multiplier effect where concentrated Rust talent now spreads across industries. However, this can amount to a net loss if those with bleeding edge Rust skills and experience cannot continue putting them to use. Further, unused expertise atrophies.

After the Great Depression, the New York City public schools became some of the best in the country as those with amazing credentials and work experience were displaced and needed jobs. The same can happen with Mozilla's layoffs, where Rust can spread faster and have a great impact on software development, but only if people can put their bleeding edge skills to best use.

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