Video Games Are the Future of Education • Hacker News Board

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#251

Post by aaron695 » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 1:37 AM UTC

> 1 Books I chose to read myself

> #1-3 happened despite formal schooling

How did they learn to read? Plus I've never met a school that didn't encourage kids to read.

> Making it easier to create video games

Yes, video games are getting harder. And will continue to. GTA 5 cost half a billion and it's easy to see how it could be better. Until we have amazing AI it won't change and then nothing in this blog counts.

> Another insight is that making things easier has nonlinear effects.

This is where the blog gets it totally right and what Education really needs. Just nothing to do with computer games.

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#252

Post by eru » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 1:37 AM UTC

throwawaygh wrote: post #105

Spooky23 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve served on a school board and can say at a high level that parents get pretty crazy about weird things, games included. Boring stuff that checks boxes is the safe answer for an institution. If it’s fun, the school will get bombarded with complaints about taxpayers paying for games, the devil inside the computer, etc. Parents tend to not care or think about outcomes if the angry box is ticked. The best fun things…

> The best fun things are maker projects. The tangible outcome is understandable to people. The educational content/value varies though. Yeah, every parent these days seems to have the attitude "god forbid we teach more than one algorithm for addition, but it's unacceptable that you don't have CS in middle school!" And even get outright angry if you try to point out that teaching more than one algorithm that meets th…

And German kids aren't even particularly smart about math. The German schooling systems just sucks slightly less, I guess. Perhaps because they don't vote local school boards. The democratic process interferes at state level.

(I grew up in Germany and now live in extra-nerdy Singapore.)

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#253

Post by ImaCake » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 1:45 AM UTC

hrktb wrote: post #233

speeder wrote: post #59

I own a educational game company. Long story short: it doesn't sell. At my company we identified, at least if your target is kids, two ways to sell edu games. 1. Sell them to institutions, like governments, schools, companies, whatever. Thing is, the features they look when choosing a game to buy, are ones most likely to make the game unfun, the end result is often boring stuff noone WANTS to play. 2. Sell them to th…

It seems the author is not thinking about games (educational or not) in the common sense, but in way broader terms: > A video game is just: > > (a) a simulation of reality > (b) with fast feedback loops. I’d agree with both of you. “Educational” games are a hard sell. I’m a parent and the educational mini-games pushed by school is boring to death and won’t stick with my kid. It’s hard to articulate, but the underlyin…

I'd argue that micro controllers and educational/programmable robots fit into this category as well. They allow the kind of play and learning that makes them both engaging and valuable for education.

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#254

Post by mysterydip » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 1:45 AM UTC

msla wrote: post #249

anticsapp wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the max time in updates allowed?

Better question: Is there a fixed answer, or does it vary arbitrarily?

Good questions. I don't know for sure, but I know a couple of my apps have been delisted because I haven't updated them (they worked just fine and since then I upgraded and lost the development environment used).

I was unable to find anything specific beyond "apps we determine to be outdated" here https://developer.apple.com/support/app-store-improvements/

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#255

Post by cloverich » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 1:49 AM UTC

tchaffee wrote: post #171

Alex3917 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hot takes from people with no experience in the field are only interesting to other people who have no experience in the field. It seems developers are particularly prone to this hubris. This is definitely true about developers, and this is one of the biggest problems with HN. That said, I think this particular article is spot on. Not everything is best taught through games, but right now 99% of stuff isn't taught…

> FWIW the specific mistake you're making is thinking about this in a way that overemphasizes the context of the school system. I am? I have spent literally thousands of hours volunteering for a free online education platform that operates entirely independently from school systems. Although some schools do use it. Some of my family was home schooled. Along with that I have actual teaching experience outside the publ…

I picked up a real guitar for years, mastered quite a few techniques but never learned to see the music on the fretboard. I suspect a good game would have got me over that hump quite easily. The last time I rode a horse it bucked me off; maybe a game would not help me so much there. So yes, for _some_ things there is a contradiction but I don't think that is a useful point. The arguments are not diluted by "Video games don't cover 100% of things you could learn".

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#256

Post by tsumnia » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 1:55 AM UTC

wespiser_2018 wrote: post #98

tsumnia wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I do agree, it is not without caveats. One issue is that "engagement" is not a good metric for measuring learning. One of the early studies made on the DragonBox math game system[1] showed less benefit than allowing re-practice opportunities with a traditional tutoring system with no reward system. This was despite students showing higher levels of engagement, enjoyment, and completing more exercises using Drag…

Indeed, and I think if you optimize for engagement, you are really failing to consider that once you target a metric, that metric is no longer useful. For the MOOC example, what I meant by engagement was, "Week over week, does the student return?" or Weekly Active Users as a percentage of total students at the start of the course. For a MOOCs, the number of students disengaging is so high, that there is obviously a p…

MOOCs are an interesting area as well, as they share similar drop off to free mobile games - high initial recruitment and engagement, but immediate drop off. I love a lot of the components that MOOCs use and utilize them in my course design, but the high drop off is why I support traditional class-based environments. The cost of tuition and fear of failure ensure they stick with it. In another world, I think it's one of the reasons why many physical sports like martial arts have high drop offs as well, no risk from failure.

This is one of the reasons I don't particularly care for motivation studies, as I believe it's only a temporary method to generate traction. Once learning becomes difficult, it requires a higher order of motivation I call "discipline" to maintain.

But back to MOOCs, there is work on MOOC forum analysis[1]. In short, forum activity and the people you associate with in an educational forum can have a significant impact on your grade. Note this study was post-hoc analysis, but students that primarily discussed non-course relevant topics were more likely to fail the course.

There is also the fact that MOOC students come from a variety of life experiences. Students of different countries have different cultures and as a result, will behave differently [2]. France, for example, only wanted to view the course in [2], not engage.

I think the beauty of a MOOC is the accessibility and automated feedback feature that from their design. Beyond that they suffer from a lot of human conditions that can't really be controlled without removing or reducing those features. Plus, as I mention, there isn't a lot of cog psych research on "discipline" yet to identify the qualities that encourage its development besides Duckworth's "grit" (if I'm wrong I'd love to be pointed towards them).

[1] http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1446/GEDM_2015_Submission_2.pdf

[2] https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED592695.pdf

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#257

Post by hhs » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 1:58 AM UTC

klenwell wrote: post #194

shafyy wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also tried to make educational games and came to a similar conclusion. The truth is, kids (or adults) don't want to play "educational" games. They just want to play fun games. And, let's be honest, games that try to teach you math or science are just not as fun as Fortnite or Minecraft. Now, you can make the case that some games are educational by mistake. Like Minecraft, Age of Empires, Sim City or Kerbal Space P…

The lesson here reminds me of one of my favorite Malcolm Gladwell essays about McDonald's failure to market healthy fast food back in the 90's: The McLean was a flop, and four years later it was off the market. What happened? Part of the problem appears to have been that McDonald's rushed the burger to market before many of the production kinks had been worked out. More important, though, was the psychological handic…

Indeed, wonder how the McLean would land now almost 30 years later? If they sold it as a healthy choice today, would it face a similar failure?

Speaking of choice and marketing, wonder why McDonald’s in the US still lacks a veggie burger. Is it based on a business decision?

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#258

Post by tsumnia » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 1:58 AM UTC

tsumnia wrote: post #256

wespiser_2018 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, and I think if you optimize for engagement, you are really failing to consider that once you target a metric, that metric is no longer useful. For the MOOC example, what I meant by engagement was, "Week over week, does the student return?" or Weekly Active Users as a percentage of total students at the start of the course. For a MOOCs, the number of students disengaging is so high, that there is obviously a p…

MOOCs are an interesting area as well, as they share similar drop off to free mobile games - high initial recruitment and engagement, but immediate drop off. I love a lot of the components that MOOCs use and utilize them in my course design, but the high drop off is why I support traditional class-based environments. The cost of tuition and fear of failure ensure they stick with it. In another world, I think it's one…

As an aside, you might be interested in my colleague's work on MOOC Forum analysis as she goes into some discussions about what type of students come back to MOOCs - https://nikign.github.io/

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#259

Post by blondin » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 2:16 AM UTC

throwawaygh wrote: post #115

tchaffee wrote: post #84

Hot takes from people with no experience in the field are only interesting to other people who have no experience in the field. It seems developers are particularly prone to this hubris. I don't find many doctors writing about the future of programming languages, or teachers writing blogs about the future of medicine. Yet you can find thousands of these hot takes from developers about the future of education. Or pick…

> I don't find many doctors writing about the future of programming languages That's because they don't care, not because they are more humble. Similarly, I don't see many programmers opining about surgerical techniques or scalpels or whatever the medical equivalent to PL design might be. There are lots of doctors and lawyers who opine about education. And not just opine, but also shape policy. Go check the professio…

i agree with OP and i also see what you are trying to say but OP is saying something that is deeper that resonates with me.

OP is saying that we are trying to integrate or otherwise assimilate other fields. you know, the software is eating the world thing.

now doctors you just gave as example aren't trying to do that, are they?

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#260

Post by mncharity » Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 2:25 AM UTC

throwawaygh wrote: post #91

I think there's been a fundamental conflation of schooling and education in the USA. Go back and read Paul Graham's essay on education. It's ultimately a critique of a very specific and particular social institution. It is possible that software is the future of US K-12 education. I could see huge success for a piece of software inspired by DuoLingo's gamification and Khan Academy's bite-sized quick-"I get it"-gratif…

> So, stepping back, the tech elite's attitude toward US education scares me. It's going to do to our schools what that particular set of neo-liberal MBA programs did to so many iconic American businesses.

I flag this argument as thought provoking.

Though... I've reservations about it, as I believe students are being failed far more pervasively and profoundly, than is almost ever suggested. First-tier astronomy graduate students so lack integrated understanding of their field, that they are pervasively mistaken about the simple color of the Sun. Harvard freshman are described as having had such "good" teachers, clearly presenting well-organized information, that students now lack both skills and willingness to wrestle with a body of knowledge and build their own understanding.

I still buy a conservative argument, that things could still be horribly worse. As much education around the world illustrates. And certainly, subculture groupthink and reality disconnect is a well trod path to disaster. And being unable to see the flaws in ones own community is ever popular. So I'm delighted by a reminder to check the mirror.

But while things could be made much worse, I don't think people appreciate how profound a disaster we are already living. And are thus severely underestimating the potential payoff of improvement. And are thus severely underinvesting in it. But as you point out, the incentives around what form that investment takes, are scary at present. My reservation is, the status quo seems underappreciatedly scary too. I've a not-quite joke, that if by some miracle you could raise everyone's science understanding to that of Harvard freshman, it might be good for societal equity, but it would seem a pity, that you didn't try for something less badly broken.