Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report • Hacker News Board

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#251

Post by mistermann » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

reitanqild wrote: post #132

mistermann wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct. It is not difficult to find at least one single fault in any human being. It seems interesting that a community whose members overwhelmingly work in logical domains, also struggles being consistently logical on an aggregate basis. And not just that, the abstract topic itself is... rather touchy . Might there be something interesting to learn here?

> It seems interesting that a community whose members overwhelmingly work in logical domains, also struggles being consistently logical on an aggregate basis. The bar to become a member is low, and while comments are scrutinized and can be flagged, votes aren't. And let me be honest: even I vote for or against topics that I wouldn't write for or against. I think this is often observed in elections as well were people…

> The bar to become a member is low

As it is on most any other site. And depending on who signs up and participates on which each site, you end up with some sort of an average intelligence level per site. HN's I suspect would be rather close to the top.

> and while comments are scrutinized and can be flagged, votes aren't.

Indeed they aren't, which is my point.

> I think this is often observed in elections as well were people will give a secret vote to something they agree with even if they aren't ready to face their families about it.

And one might expect the same to occur here, but does it, and to what degree? Is there more, less, or identical diversity of cultural/political beliefs in the general public, or on HN? Based on many years reading comments (particularly dimmed-due-to-downvotes ones, and responses to them) here, I have a feeling that there is less diversity of thought here.

Knowing such things with high levels of accuracy would require a form of omniscience, but that doesn't mean that nothing can be gleaned from user behavior on HN, or any sit for that matter.

>> Might there be something interesting to learn here?

> Absolutely :-)

What sorts of things do you think we could learn if one had access to the HN voting data?

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#252

Post by fourcommas » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

hetspookjee wrote: post #150

fourcommas wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WaPo holds the distinguished title of being the first and only newspaper in the US whose editorial board endorsed the arrest and criminal charging of their own source.

I hold the WaPo in high regard and tend to read it everyday but I missed this entirely, and sounds rather shocking. Could you please source your statement?

Snowden passed his trove of classified info to two papers: WP and Guardian. Snowden never published any of his trove, he relied on these two papers to determine what was newsworthy and publish it.

WP published various parts of the trove they deemed newsworthy, and ultimately won and accepted a Pulitzer for this.

Then the editorial board signed and published a statement that said some of what was released from the trove actually wasn't newsworthy and were reasonable and legal defense programs. The editorial board recommended that because of this Snowden should be charged. In the editorial itself they acknowledge that the illegal behavior that was discovered can't be used as a defense in court.

The WP was offered and accepted the responsibility to parse this trove and publish only what is newsworthy. They messed up and published a couple documents that weren't newsworthy. They never publish any kind of apology or correction for it, instead they indict their own source, and recommend he be charged for that!

There's an unprecedented level of malice and incompetence displayed here. Look at the revolt in the NYT newsroom about the Cotton op-ed, and compare to literally not a word said in opposition to the WP editorial (which was written and signed by the editorial board, unlike the Cotton op-ed). The WP is rotten throughout, and shouldn't be held in even the slightest regard as a newspaper when they use their position to destroy the protection of sources that journalists fought for so long to preserve.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/edward-snowden-doesn...

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#253

Post by xyzzyz » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 4:56 PM UTC

jacobush wrote: post #230

OGWhales wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an intruder?

I can't really remember the case, but there was a standoff where a (white) person returned fire against law enforcement after they shot his dog. In the end I think one law enforcement officer was killed on one side, and that guys wife, child and dog was on the other side. There was no punishment for the killing of the LEO.

The incident you’re referring to is Ruby Ridge. There has been much more disconduct by the feds than just shooting guy’s dog, and his acquittal did not hinge on the fact that they shot his dog first.

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#254

Post by wan23 » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

alkibiades wrote: post #240

bilbo0s wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just, Devil's Advocate, but do you think the accident could have been the police kicking in the door of the wrong apartment? The boyfriend shooting at the police does not seem accidental, nor does it seem in any way wrong to my mind. If the officers had kicked in the door of the right apartment, the boyfriend would not have tried to take the officers out. Again, a completely appropriate and well reasoned response in…

i agree with what you said. the entire ordeal was an accident on both sides but my question remained. is there a shred of evidence it was racially motivated since it’s getting lumped in with BLM

This incident is actually so much worse than the George Floyd incident in my mind. The police force as an institution decided that it would be okay to bust down the door of the home without identification and with guns drawn, knowing that in such an operation it is very possible that someone could get seriously hurt. In the end, it basically comes down to the law enforcement institution deciding that the lives and safety of the occupants of the home just don't matter that much.

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#255

Post by jacobush » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #253

jacobush wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't really remember the case, but there was a standoff where a (white) person returned fire against law enforcement after they shot his dog. In the end I think one law enforcement officer was killed on one side, and that guys wife, child and dog was on the other side. There was no punishment for the killing of the LEO.

The incident you’re referring to is Ruby Ridge. There has been much more disconduct by the feds than just shooting guy’s dog, and his acquittal did not hinge on the fact that they shot his dog first.

No, I didn't mean to imply it.

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#256

Post by JamesBarney » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 6:08 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #139

JamesBarney wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the bad guy a couple of cops who we hold to the impossible standard of not returning fire? Or are no-knock warrants the bad guy which routinely cause deaths for the sole purpose of keeping some drugs from being flushed down the toilet? Because one of these is very easy to fix and would 100% mean Taylor would still be alive. The other would be super difficult to fix and who knows if it would have saved her life.

If they unlawfully put themselves in a situation where they felt compelled to return fire then they should be held accountable for whatever damage their bullets do just like any other person would be. If my convenience store stickup goes sideways and the clerk gets shot I'm responsible. Cops should be held to the same standards as normal people. We should also get rid of no-knocks but that's just whacking a particula…

Did the cops unlawfully put themselves in that situation?

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#257

Post by JamesBarney » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

arrrg wrote: post #112

JamesBarney wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the bad guy a couple of cops who we hold to the impossible standard of not returning fire? Or are no-knock warrants the bad guy which routinely cause deaths for the sole purpose of keeping some drugs from being flushed down the toilet? Because one of these is very easy to fix and would 100% mean Taylor would still be alive. The other would be super difficult to fix and who knows if it would have saved her life.

Is "not returning fire" really an impossible standard to you? How about: If you do something that could be met with justified self defense and you encounter that self defense your first instinct as police should be to retreat and clarify the situation? Why is it reasonable to have the first instinct to shoot back?

Do you think that a blanket policy that all officers retreat when fired upon without returning fire wouldn't be exploitable by criminals?

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#258

Post by JamesBarney » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

ncallaway wrote: post #97

JamesBarney wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the bad guy a couple of cops who we hold to the impossible standard of not returning fire? Or are no-knock warrants the bad guy which routinely cause deaths for the sole purpose of keeping some drugs from being flushed down the toilet? Because one of these is very easy to fix and would 100% mean Taylor would still be alive. The other would be super difficult to fix and who knows if it would have saved her life.

There can be multiple people at fault for a situation. The answer is: both should be addressed. The officers should be thoroughly investigated for this incident by an independent third party. If the facts support it they should be charged with the most advanced crime that the facts support (e.g. manslaughter). Simultaneously, we should immediately discontinue and abandon no-knock warrants. If they're not abandoned en…

I totally agree this incident should be investigated by a third party. And if they committed a crime they should be charged.

But my understanding is that leading up to the death of Taylor no laws were broken.

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#259

Post by JamesBarney » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

CathedralBorrow wrote: post #148

JamesBarney wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the bad guy a couple of cops who we hold to the impossible standard of not returning fire? Or are no-knock warrants the bad guy which routinely cause deaths for the sole purpose of keeping some drugs from being flushed down the toilet? Because one of these is very easy to fix and would 100% mean Taylor would still be alive. The other would be super difficult to fix and who knows if it would have saved her life.

> Is the bad guy a couple of cops who we hold to the impossible standard of not returning fire? That's very hard to answer because the cops have censored or lied about most of the report, as well as making claims about knocking and introducing themselves -- holding a no-knock warrant -- which is apparently disputed by witnesses. But then again I don't think it's very helpful to try to identify the one and only Bad Gu…

I think it's very helpful to focus on easily fixable, impactful measures over hard to fix measures with uncertain efficacy.

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#260

Post by dzonga » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 6:37 PM UTC

e40 wrote: post #56

rayiner wrote: post #7

USA Today has the best coverage of this I’ve seen. The NYT coverage of this is awful: https://www.nytimes.com/article/breonna-taylor-police.html A key fact is that the police shot Taylor after her boyfriend shot at the police, thinking they were intruders. While he was fully entitled to do that, the NYT doesn’t believe in gun rights so that’s a messy fact. To make the victim seem more sympathetic, the narrative under…

I recently canceled my NYT subscription over the Tom Cotton op-ed. Really glad I did. WaPo and ProPublica have my money now.

I cancelled mine in 2016. when they had biased reporting against Bernie Sanders. to me, a person from a 3rd world country staying in the states. was a shock. one of the biggest papers in the world, being politically biased. I was mad and sad.