There is no strong evidence for a racially biased use of deadly force by the police in the USA. It is crazy the entire public debate around this issue does not even question this assumption.
How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change
251–260 of 430 posts
Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change
#252Earlier quoted context omitted.
The American revolution was a violent protest.
Against a tyrannical, non-representative government , and it was a last-ditch effort . We have a democracy. People have opportunities to vote. Police policy is decided largely at the local level, so individual votes are powerful. Imagine if even 10% of protesters voted in their local elections...
Why would you think that the voter turnout among protestors is less than 10%? That seems absurd and at least a little offensive.
Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change
#253Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is it not political violence when a black man is killed in the street without due process, treated differently than a white person would be? I still haven't seen any evidence whatsoever that any homes have been looted or burned by protestors, or that anyone has been killed by protestors. Only "what if"s, like "what if the fire killed someone?" It didn't, but we have a very real case of a police officer killing someon…
No, that's racist violence, not political violence. It doesn't have to be burning homes for arson to have potential to kill. Burning a Target can easily kill someone too. And, "it hasn't kill anyone yet" is a pretty weak counter to the claim that arson can be violence. In fact, people do die from arson. The fact that nobody has - yet - in these protests does not change that whatsoever.
Racist violence is political violence. It is agents of the state enforcing a racial order which is inextricable from (and perpetuated by) the politics of the state.
> And, "it hasn't kill anyone yet" is a pretty weak counter to the claim that arson can be violence. In fact, people do die from arson. The fact that nobody has - yet - in these protests does not change that whatsoever.
Okay, but then people are more likely to be killed by a police officer than by arson. So why don't we focus on the actual violent catalyst for all the protesting (and the ones playing out all over the country), which actually happened? Why are we so focused on the potential of the protestors to accidentally kill someone, rather than the very real threat of police actually killing unarmed US citizens?
One of these types of supposed violence is actually much more deadly than the other, with ample evidence.
Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change
#254What are some actual laws we can pass from this situation? I was thinking at the very least to get a citizen right where you can request to have any encounter with the police recorded. ‘Officer I request my right to have this encounter recorded’.
It’s possible that the answer is “there are no laws that can be passed”, at least at the national level.
Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change
#255Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't condone violence, but at the same time you have to acknowledge that modern American democracy was built on the foundation of political violence. It worked for us.
America rebelled precisely because we didn't have a meaningfully representative form of government? People couldn't vote for the reforms they wanted because there wasn't a democracy. Rebellion against an overtly oppressive tyrant as a last resort for the right to representation is different than the opportunistic violence that we're seeing today.
At what point do aggressive voter suppression laws by the Republican party constitute tyranny? I imagine many of those individuals targeted by those laws would say it is already well past that point.
Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change
#256What are some actual laws we can pass from this situation? I was thinking at the very least to get a citizen right where you can request to have any encounter with the police recorded. ‘Officer I request my right to have this encounter recorded’.
1. Community oversight through a board 2. Limit the use of force 3. Independently investigate and prosecute 4. Community representation 5. Body cams / film the police 6. Training in de-escalation 7. End for profit policing 8. Demilitarization of the police force 9. Fair police union contracts that remove provisions within police bill of rights that impose barriers to accountability Look here: Https://bit.ly/3cosVXM
Exactly this.
Additionally, this thread lists actual legislation that has been proposed and, in some cases, passed in cities and states to address police violence: https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1266855519425384450
Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change
#257Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am curious, what would such a system look like? I am thinking that a "promise" is not a quantitative term. It needs to be ratified into specific data oriented actions that can go through a litmus test whether it was fulfilled or betrayed. After that, one idea is to have an accountability score tracked by bureaucracy and have that printed on the ballot along with their principle accomplishments in the supplement. An…
A control theory idea: use continuous voting. When the support falls below some threshold (e.g. 50%), kick the candidate out. But now you'll get an unstable system where candidates get kicked out all the time and are too populist because they don't expect to live long. So add a low-pass filter. When the moving average of the candidate's support falls below the threshold and a definite other candidate's support is hig…
Only on HN do you find a theory of politics based on Controls/DSP fundamentals. Nyquist plot of political instability would be nice. I applaud you.
Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change
#258Earlier quoted context omitted.
Other replies have some useful ideas, but I think it's important to strike right at the heart of the issue: lack of accountability and redress. Something _like_: make police leadership legally accountable for the actions of their officers. I say something _like_ this because it's in the right direction, but probably not the exact solution necessary. Another similar approach is something _like_ forbidding police union…
We have a different problem in my country of residence in that policing is a federal/national function. There are two arms of police, crime is handled by national police and enforcing of city by laws is done by the city/metro police. It just feels like police don't have enough local leadership. I always thought the US system where the police report to the mayor enables the mayor (read local person) to have a fair say…
In practice how it works in most large cities in the US is the mayor ends up deferring to police leadership because the police hold so much influence over local political conditions. Mayors that get tough on dirty cops find themselves riding a wave of crime atop the police deciding to simply stop policing certain sorts of calls or in particular areas.
Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change
#259> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…
There is an expression that says "the state has a monopoly on violence" - the government has no issue using violence to get their way, in fact, the essentially have no other tactics. And that's exactly why everyone decided to go protest. Breaking that taboo is a way of taking power back from the state.
It's a bit more than merely an expression[1]. The point (as I understand it) is also not to say that the state is only capable of or always legitimate in administering violence.
Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change
#260Earlier quoted context omitted.
The violence of the American Revolution was targeted at the government institutions and military that directly threatened them. These riots are targeted at innocent civilians. Destroying peoples livelihoods, setting fire to residences with people still inside (including children), etc. I would not be so quick to draw such a comparison.
American revolutionaries targeted loyalist civilians for violence and property destruction. Let's not ignore the ugly parts of our national history. In some cases it was literally terrorism, at least by the modern definition. https://www.ushistory.org/US/13c.asp
It's fair to bring that up, but I don't think it changes my point. Defending against a military force which is threatening one's independence is worlds apart from violence towards innocent civilians. That the latter was committed during revolutionary period does not mean it was justified then, nor is it justified now.