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$5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

caloes.ca.gov

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Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#251

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

syshum wrote: post #145
robomartin wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the points you are making. I will add that hoarding does increase the cost of producing goods. If the toilet paper manufacturer needs to produce at 10x normal capacity because people are filling their car with the stuff, they will need to increase staff, work more shifts and maybe even buy/rent/build more production equipment. Does this double, triple or quadruple costs? Likely not. Yet costs do increase…

>Perhaps the law we need is one to control hoarding behavior or the rate of change. Aside from an authoritarian system of governance where all purchases are tracked, and one must only purchase their "allotted" amount of goods, how exactly would one control hoarding? i hope you are not proposing such a dystopian future.

I saw a post on reddit where a costco was only letting you buy one (giant) case of TP per purchase.

https://i.imgur.com/m0Efz3E.gifv

There are obvious ways to cheat it, but it still means more people end up with TP. You don't have to go full police state to make the distribution of goods more even.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#252

Post by jamespollack »

ggreer wrote: post #239
cadlin wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>To a very good approximation, the marginal impact of any hoarders on the scarcity of a product is zero. This is pure ideology. Do you have any evidence that a single person buying 10,000 masks from every hardware store in an entire state has no marginal impact on the scarcity of a product? Basic math would suggest this is not the case.

Do you have evidence that someone has bought 10,000 masks from every hardware store in a state? Otherwise you're arguing from fiction.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/technology/coronavirus-pu...

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#253

Post by nate_meurer »

EdgarVerona wrote: post #95

A lot of people in this thread are willfully ignoring some basic facts here. These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to pro…

> This is a case of consumers attempting to create small niches of artificial scarcity so that they can profit.

A good example of this is in a related thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22576225

The article describes how a couple of guys drove from store to store all across their state, buying up all of the antiseptic supplies in stock, and then trying to resell them online for as much money as they could possibly get.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#254

Post by koheripbal »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #243
EdgarVerona wrote: post #95

A lot of people in this thread are willfully ignoring some basic facts here. These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to pro…

Amen. Price isn't even the issue here, just a symptom. Hoarding is the issue. Limit people to not buying 100 rolls of toilet paper, and suddenly the price everyone's willing to pay levels out. Price isn't the problem. Uneven distribution is.

The best solution is to increase production to the point where all those hoarders are left with tons of worthless inventory.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#255

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

anikan_vader wrote: post #16

From an economics stand point, I don't understand why the government should ban price-gouging. Doesn't this place an artificial price ceiling that will ensure a shortage of goods? I would personally rather stores have items such as food/water at marked-up prices than not at all.

Because you shouldn't look with an econ lens. It's the same reason charging a ton for insulin is bad for society.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#256

Post by bob1029 »

justinzollars wrote: post #61

Price-gouging would correct the toilet paper hoarding problem.

Allowing prices to directly track available inventory seems like an excellent approach. The problem will self-correct very quickly as 4-packs of toilet paper begin to exceed $20. As inventory is replenished, prices could begin to drop again.

Yes - this sucks for someone who really wanted toilet paper that day, but at the same time it ensures more conscientious spending where absolutely required. I usually don't check prices when I shop for groceries, but if TP was $20 per roll id probably actively decide to not buy any that day. Having this kind of damping from a price-demand perspective could really help to stabilize the availability of goods in retail environments. I can understand how customers might not like this, but if situations are dire, I think we should consider at least being able to throw some sort of switch to enable this mode of operation during emergencies.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#257

Post by creato »

logicchains wrote: post #178
geofft wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could, alternatively, convince them that they don't want that much toilet paper. For instance, convince them that stores will not run out of stock and that they will be able to go to stores. This is the normal state of the toilet paper market. The problem here is not that we've suddenly been possessed by demons who want infinite toilet paper, the problem is that people are making rational decisions based on actua…

>Also, price-gouging laws do not "stop the market from giving them what they want." If anything, price gouging does - if someone who has $100 in savings wants a year's worth of toilet paper, they're less able to successfully get it if the market can run unchecked. It's true that an unregulated free market is good at getting products sold at the best price for the sellers - that's very different from giving people wha…

I highly doubt toilet paper manufacturers will add production capacity. In the long term, toilet paper consumption must be absurdly stable. If people are buying extra toilet paper today, they'll buy less toilet paper in the future (unless they start having toilet paper bonfires or something).

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#258

Post by gruez »

koheripbal wrote: post #254
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen. Price isn't even the issue here, just a symptom. Hoarding is the issue. Limit people to not buying 100 rolls of toilet paper, and suddenly the price everyone's willing to pay levels out. Price isn't the problem. Uneven distribution is.

The best solution is to increase production to the point where all those hoarders are left with tons of worthless inventory.

then they just return their inventory for a full refund.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#259

Post by yyy888sss »

EdgarVerona wrote: post #95

A lot of people in this thread are willfully ignoring some basic facts here. These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to pro…

This whole problem was solved in Australia by all supermarkets rationing fast selling goods (1 pack toilet paper, handwipes, pasta etc per day) but keeping prices low.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#260

Post by [deleted] »

syshum wrote: post #175
XorNot wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the exact mechanism in the article above, penalizing price-gouging?

That does not prevent hoarding The idea that people are hoarding right now simply because they want to resell the goods to others is moronic on many levels People are hoarding right now because they believe they may be months with out a supply of the good, so they are buying in multiples of normal levels fully expecting they will use it themselves, not reselling

[deleted]
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