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Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

bbc.com

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Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#251

Post by mrfredward »

tilolebo wrote: post #204
ryanmercer wrote: post #126

I know I'm going to be downvoted and already regret deciding to share this but... I've never understood parental leave. If I want to go on a vacation, I have to plan for that and save time to use for it. If you want to have a child, you should have to plan to save your time to take and spend with the child or be in a financial place where one parent can quit their job to stay with the child. It's not like you go to s…

Because many governments rely on children to finance the country's economy? It's still less costly than immigration.

>It's still less costly than immigration.

Can you explain this? Its hard for me to imagine how letting someone through a border could cost more than providing healthcare and education to an individual for 18+ years.

If a government really wants the increase the tax base, how could you possibly find a better ROI than letting skilled working age people immigrate?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#253

Post by tyscore »

aguyfromnb wrote: post #205
socialdemocrat wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is just that the days get wasted if you don't take them. So you would be stupid not to do it. > Not a freak, don't care for the infant stage. Happy to dote when they start to turn into people. That is kind of a selfish attitude. The early stage is a lot of work, but why should you skip the work while your wife has to do it all? I remember back in that time. I was quite happy to go back to work the first weeks, bec…

> The early stage is a lot of work, but why should you skip the work while your wife has to do it all? "Skip the work"? He literally said he's working..a job. Unfortunately, in the society we've built it is considered the most important work, since it pays the bills and enables the ability to start a family. I agree it's important that both people share the burden of parenthood, but let's not swing it so far the othe…

But this is why the paternity leave is being offered. So that your 'sole source of income' is not stopped while you can do the 'work' and share equally in the workload of rearing the child that YOU decided you wanted.

The original commenter is insinuating that even with this facility he will prefer to go to his 'real work' esp when the kid is small and the child-rearing work is not satisfactory enough and that frankly is quite selfish.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#254

Post by throwaway894345 »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #242
aguyfromnb wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being indoors all the time or having to care for a child 24/7 can be extremely isolating This doesn't jibe with my experience at all. My wife is quite enjoying being at home with the baby, and gets to spend as much time outdoors as she cares for, even in the harsh Canadian winter. Sure there are some sleepless nights (for both of us), but I'm not sure where this idea comes from that caring for a baby is a 24/7 slog…

"This doesn't jibe with my experience at all. My wife is quite enjoying being at home with the baby, and gets to spend as much time outdoors as she cares for, even in the harsh Canadian winter." But that isn't true for all mothers. If a mother needs to socialize with other adults, or wants to chill with a drink with her friends, or go to a book club, etc. having a child that she must be solely responsible for 24/7 ca…

We're not talking about all mothers, we're talking about giving individuals the opportunity to make the choices that work for them.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#255

Post by krastanov »

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #213
krastanov wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really do not understand the premise of your question. Yes, there is nothing wrong with one of the spouses being a home maker that is dependent on the monetary support of the professional spouse if this is what they want . But to turn your question around, what is so wrong with having other options!? Of course at the end being in a relationship and having kids is a partnership and people should rely on one another,…

What is wrong with having other options is that there is a cost associated with maintaining those other options, and the children will be paying it one way or another. Raising children well is enormously time consuming and difficult. Parents who want to do a good job don't have the luxury of abundant time and energy. Any effort spent maintaining these other options is done at the expense of the children.

This is a generic defeatist premise. Yes, if we do not try to make the world a more pleasant place to live in, the world indeed will not be a more pleasant place. And yes, poor people (and right now even middle class people) do not have the luxury to have the choice I depicted, or many other choices. But it is worthwhile to have our institutions try to change work culture for the better, exactly so that these options become feasible, both for the middle class and for the even less lucky.

Or to rephrase it in your way: there are costs to maintaining these other options, and I am happy to see that there are governments trying (and occasionally succeeding) to pay these costs.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#256

Post by jacobush »

ip26 wrote: post #206
mensetmanusman wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, I have seen cases of both parents taking company leave, and still putting their kids in childcare so that they can do house projects. Defeats the purpose... culture takes time to change

Who knows, maybe it was a stress outlet. Home improvement certainly was for me when my first was little.

Yep. It's complicated. One downside of suburbia is that it can get very, very lonely as a parent at home.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#257

Post by toomuchtodo »

mvc wrote: post #80
toomuchtodo wrote: post #12

But will they force Dads to take it? As a Dad who had two kids, I would much rather pay for childcare than take paternity leave. Would someone like me be held back artificially to promote equality? EDIT: Not a freak, don't care for the infant stage. Happy to dote when they start to turn into people.

Would you show this comment to your kids once they're able to read?

Of course. Just as when they’re old enough they’ll learn about all of my other successes and failures as a human. May they make better choices than I to lead a better life than I have.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#258

Post by HBKXNCUO »

tomatocracy wrote: post #236
krastanov wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really do not understand the premise of your question. Yes, there is nothing wrong with one of the spouses being a home maker that is dependent on the monetary support of the professional spouse if this is what they want . But to turn your question around, what is so wrong with having other options!? Of course at the end being in a relationship and having kids is a partnership and people should rely on one another,…

I agree that nothing's wrong with making the choice to be a stay at home mother (or father), especially when children are very young and not at school. But as a society we have organised ourselves in such a way that this choice is economically and socially much harder to make than it used to be and in my view much harder to make than it should be. One of the problems in particular is that it is far too hard for peopl…

>But as a society we have organised ourselves in such a way that this choice is economically and socially much harder to make than it used to be and in my view much harder to make than it should be.

Sounds to me like we should make a conscious effort to reverse the changes that have been made lately, then, and also take a hard look at the motives of the people that have pushed us in that direction.

>One of the problems in particular is that it is far too hard for people to come back to the workplace after taking a 5 or 6 year career break to look after children while they're young.

I don't see how that is a problem. It takes a lot of work to maintain a desirable society, and I would guess most of it is not done at the behest of a corporation.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#259

Post by myle »

Nimitz14 wrote: post #214
the_af wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagreed. Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. The problem is breastfeeding, but there are ways around that (and some mothers, for a variety of reasons or impediments, don't breastfeed; in that case it's completely moot). So minus breastfeeding, the asymmetry has a large component of "it was always done like this", plus the mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is s…

A counterpoint: A friend of mine had a kid a year ago and he found it impossible to take care of the baby when he tried being the caretaker while the mom was away (can't breastfeed, milk in a bottle is not the same). The experience has convinced him equal parental leave is a terrible idea.

Counter counter point: I am a father. Took 5 months off. Baby was breastfed. How? Mom was pumping milk at work, after her lunch break. We put it in the freezer. I was waking it up and giving it with a bottle to my daughter. Diapers/food and so on can be taken care by both genders. It is not easy. Actually, at the end, I was looking forward to going back to work and sending my daughter to daycare, once she was 1 year old. It is possible though, and helped me grow up in a sense that I wouldn't have it I didn't go through it.

It also helped us as a couple because I could understand what mom was going through in earlier months and also mom could understand that I am not useless at home and I can take care of our daughter.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#260

Post by [deleted] »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #241
s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... we are doing this. The President brought it up during the State of the Union. > The Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) requires large organizations to offer employees up to 12 weeks of unpaid leave to care for a new child, sick relative or their own illness. Although a growing number of states have passed or are considering paid family leave laws, there is no nationwide equivalent. https://www.shrm.org/resour…

Yes, I mean paid parental leave, not just parental leave. FMLA doesn't even apply to employers with less than 50 people. There's a handful of states that offer paid parental leave, and even those have many caveats. It's 2020, I bet it will be at least another 4 to 6 years before we have a federal law, and even that will be a couple decades behind other progressive countries.

[deleted]
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