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James Lovelock: 'I Would Not Waste My Fortune on Colonizing Mars'

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Re: James Lovelock: 'I Would Not Waste My Fortune on Colonizing Mars'

#251
post #207

JMS had it right: Mary Ann Cramer: I have to ask you the same question people back home are asking about space these days. Is it worth it? Should we just pull back? Forget the whole thing as a bad idea, and take care of our own problems at home? Sinclair: No. We have to stay here. And there's a simple reason why. Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics, and you'll get ten diff…

Way before that the carbon cycle will stop and most life on Earth will starve. Yet way before that we'd have evolved into different species that will likely go extinct as they all do (I think the average lifetime is 10My). I don't know where this idea that we might still be here until the death of the Sun came from. I'd worry more about making it to the next glaciation without having poisoned ourselves before.

I don't think it's accurate thinking about space as a physical place out there you can simply go. It's more like jumping from one gravity well to another and what you have to think about is what part of the system you're aboard can do that by means of conservation of momentum. And that's the main reason why I don't think we have the technology nor the energy budget to think about feasible interstellar trips. It's a bit like telling techno fairy tales to children, only it's adults and we have a lot of other adult problems.

Re: James Lovelock: 'I Would Not Waste My Fortune on Colonizing Mars'

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gonna take the risk of being extremely unpopular and I'll say that Musk is completely overrated. I think he's nowhere near the level of people that we usually think of as geniuses. In certain ways he's good at marketing and hyping things up, but a lot of his ideas, especially the Mars one, are nonsensical. Just try to think about this: how bad do the conditions on Earth have to get before it makes sense to try to…

He’s literally just Donald Trump for millennial men. It’s amazing to me that people don’t see the parallels, the silver spoon childhood under a ruthless father breeding an unbounded narcissism and entitlement that must be fed with marketing spectacles, social media battles, and young women. I guess people love them both because it’s all so quintessentially American.

Agreed. His ability is to generate hype for insecure men. Nothing else he’s done suggest any real genius. And his tweeting habits show him as surprisingly ignorant much of the time.

Re: James Lovelock: 'I Would Not Waste My Fortune on Colonizing Mars'

#253
post #55

Perhaps it might have been possible in some long distant past to underestimate Elon Musk and write him off as a crazy person. That time is gone. If Musk appears to be doing something crazy you've not understood it. > It’s crazy, completely crazy. Elon Musk has read too much science fiction. He got carried away with it. If I were in his position, I would not waste my fortune on colonizing Mars. And all they would lear…

I'm gonna take the risk of being extremely unpopular and I'll say that Musk is completely overrated. I think he's nowhere near the level of people that we usually think of as geniuses. In certain ways he's good at marketing and hyping things up, but a lot of his ideas, especially the Mars one, are nonsensical. Just try to think about this: how bad do the conditions on Earth have to get before it makes sense to try to…

>Just try to think about this: how bad do the conditions on Earth have to get before it makes sense to try to move to a planet that is essentially uninhabitable? Where even in the best scenarios we would live really harsh lives after a long and dangerous voyage.

The point of colonizing Mars (for Musk) is not to move there when Earth becomes inhabitable. It's too remove the single point of failure for the species that Earth currently represents.

With a self-sustainable (even if harsh) Mars colony, a nuclear war on Earth no longer necessarily means the end of humanity.

Re: James Lovelock: 'I Would Not Waste My Fortune on Colonizing Mars'

#254
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tax money is public property and we should have a say in how it is spent. Musk's money we gave to him freely and is his to dispose of as he sees fit. A substantial portion of Elon Musk's company's funding comes from "tax money" (Goverment contracts, EV credits, tax breaks, subsidies). This seems to contradict both of your sentences. And if you don't believe it's substantial: Tesla's EV credit sales alone were on th…

> A substantial portion of Elon Musk's company's funding comes from "tax money" (Goverment contracts, EV credits, tax breaks, subsidies). How much? Sounds more like a talking point than an actual honest critique. I mean, oil companies get massive subsidies and we spend trillions to go to war to keep the petroleum industry ascendant.

Oil is the lifeblood of the US economy.

In times of economic recession, we often blame the government and get rid of them.

We've clearly signaled with our voting patterns what we want and government has delivered on it - a reliable supply of oil to power the economy. But that's not enough we also demand "Big Oil" act as our sin-eater; thus our souls are pure because Shell takes on the stain of our sins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin-eater

Re: James Lovelock: 'I Would Not Waste My Fortune on Colonizing Mars'

#255
Elon is a long way from wasting money on colonizing Mars. Everything SpaceX has done, and probably will do for the next decade, has immediate value for exploring and exploiting outer space.

As for actually colonizing Mars, he should perhaps read more Phillip K. Dick.

Re: James Lovelock: 'I Would Not Waste My Fortune on Colonizing Mars'

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gonna take the risk of being extremely unpopular and I'll say that Musk is completely overrated. I think he's nowhere near the level of people that we usually think of as geniuses. In certain ways he's good at marketing and hyping things up, but a lot of his ideas, especially the Mars one, are nonsensical. Just try to think about this: how bad do the conditions on Earth have to get before it makes sense to try to…

>Just try to think about this: how bad do the conditions on Earth have to get before it makes sense to try to move to a planet that is essentially uninhabitable? Where even in the best scenarios we would live really harsh lives after a long and dangerous voyage. The point of colonizing Mars (for Musk) is not to move there when Earth becomes inhabitable. It's too remove the single point of failure for the species that…

> The point of colonizing Mars (for Musk) is not to move there when Earth becomes inhabitable. It's too remove the single point of failure for the species that Earth currently represents.

Fair point. However it's sad to think that as a species we're so petty and narrow-minded that we need a backup in case we fuck this planet up ourselves. Maybe I'm too harsh, but I almost feel that we don't even deserve a backup if we can't avoid a nuclear holocaust or environmental collapse here on Earth.

Re: James Lovelock: 'I Would Not Waste My Fortune on Colonizing Mars'

#257
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, disconnected from reality, unlike the people that think that we are ever going to go to Mars.

Humans have hardware operating on Mars right now.

Sure, and humans have hardware exiting the solar system. A very different story to put a person there.

Re: James Lovelock: 'I Would Not Waste My Fortune on Colonizing Mars'

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gonna take the risk of being extremely unpopular and I'll say that Musk is completely overrated. I think he's nowhere near the level of people that we usually think of as geniuses. In certain ways he's good at marketing and hyping things up, but a lot of his ideas, especially the Mars one, are nonsensical. Just try to think about this: how bad do the conditions on Earth have to get before it makes sense to try to…

>Just try to think about this: how bad do the conditions on Earth have to get before it makes sense to try to move to a planet that is essentially uninhabitable? Where even in the best scenarios we would live really harsh lives after a long and dangerous voyage. The point of colonizing Mars (for Musk) is not to move there when Earth becomes inhabitable. It's too remove the single point of failure for the species that…

> "With a self-sustainable (even if harsh) Mars colony, a nuclear war on Earth no longer necessarily means the end of humanity."

At least in terms of radiation, living on Mars seems less likely to be survivable than a nuclear war on Earth since fallout decays away but the space-based radiation bathing Mars is moderately high and permanent. See: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/life-unbounded/death-on...

Re: James Lovelock: 'I Would Not Waste My Fortune on Colonizing Mars'

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just try to think about this: how bad do the conditions on Earth have to get before it makes sense to try to move to a planet that is essentially uninhabitable? Where even in the best scenarios we would live really harsh lives after a long and dangerous voyage. The point of colonizing Mars (for Musk) is not to move there when Earth becomes inhabitable. It's too remove the single point of failure for the species that…

> The point of colonizing Mars (for Musk) is not to move there when Earth becomes inhabitable. It's too remove the single point of failure for the species that Earth currently represents. Fair point. However it's sad to think that as a species we're so petty and narrow-minded that we need a backup in case we fuck this planet up ourselves. Maybe I'm too harsh, but I almost feel that we don't even deserve a backup if w…

The backup is not necessarily against a man-made catastrophe. A stray asteroid in the right place at the wrong time is perfectly capable of fucking up Earth without our assistance.

Re: James Lovelock: 'I Would Not Waste My Fortune on Colonizing Mars'

#260
post #55

Perhaps it might have been possible in some long distant past to underestimate Elon Musk and write him off as a crazy person. That time is gone. If Musk appears to be doing something crazy you've not understood it. > It’s crazy, completely crazy. Elon Musk has read too much science fiction. He got carried away with it. If I were in his position, I would not waste my fortune on colonizing Mars. And all they would lear…

I'm gonna take the risk of being extremely unpopular and I'll say that Musk is completely overrated. I think he's nowhere near the level of people that we usually think of as geniuses. In certain ways he's good at marketing and hyping things up, but a lot of his ideas, especially the Mars one, are nonsensical. Just try to think about this: how bad do the conditions on Earth have to get before it makes sense to try to…

> how bad do the conditions on Earth have to get before it makes sense to try to move to a planet that is essentially uninhabitable?

Fort Bridger, Wyoming has a population of 345[0]. California has a population of nearly 40 million[1]. Should those crazy people of the 19th century never have bothered with Fort Bridger?

Inhabiting a habitable planet outside our solar system is so far beyond our current capabilities that there is no point putting any money in to it.

Any kind of foothold on a second planet within our solar system would change that reality. Routine travel between Earth and Mars would provide heaps and heaps of experience and capability. It would make any discussion of colonizing outside our solar system much more reasonable than it is today.

Inhabiting Mars was never the end goal. It just happens to be the most practical one in a much much much larger picture.

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Bridger,_Wyoming 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California

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