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Medications that change who we are

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Re: Medications that change who we are

#251

Post by silencio »

teh_klev wrote: post #249
lilyball wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually not controversial at all among the people actually impacted by it. It's only "controversial" in that a lot of people are transphobic and are offended that trans people are allowed access to gender-affirming medical care. Besides, nobody's asking for statistics on how many people are satisfied with surgery to remove cancer, or other "obviously" good surgeries. Why are we expected to justify the existence…

> It's actually not controversial at all among the people actually impacted by it. Confirmation bias much? > a lot of people are transphobic and are offended that trans people are allowed access to gender-affirming medical care. Again, stats please, ideally by country so we might have a proper discussion. > Besides, nobody's asking for statistics on how many people are satisfied with surgery to remove cancer, or othe…

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S115813600...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19040622

https://www.erudit.org/fr/revues/ss/2013-v59-n1-ss0746/10174...

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2265....

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10508-014-0300-...

https://www.academia.edu/2236936/Trans_Mental_Health_Study_2...

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A102408681436...

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medici...

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1743-6109....

https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equali...

Hmm maybe that will occupy you for a bit?

I also find it incredibly disingenuous that everyone asking for The Statistics are asking after a very awfully specific surgery and don't seem to care whatsoever about mutilation performed on intersex people, or of metoidioplasty, or reconstructive surgery, or many other procedures in the area that are performed for all kinds of reasons.

Geesh, I'm actually kind of mad about it... as someone that has given birth to a child and about due with another one, I would love for HN commenters to talk about pelvic pain, vulvodynia, 4th degree tears, incontinence, prolapse, and other incredibly common postpartum issues that might require surgical intervention to the same degree that gender affirming surgeries are being questioned.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#253

Post by kerkeslager »

aldoushuxley001 wrote: post #245
kerkeslager wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it not abundantly clear that a photon is just a photon? What else could it be? Well, light can be modeled as either a wave or a particle[1]. When talking about colors, it makes more sense to talk about light using the wave model of light than the particle model of light--not that either way of talking about it is wrong, it's just that the particle model is way more complicated for modeling this particular phenom…

A lot of what you say is irrelevant. I get the feeling you aren't aware of the hard problem of consciousness, so I'll leave this here for you to read up on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness . Are you familiar with concepts like qualia? I recommend reading that wiki too. The problem for you is that you still fail to draw a distinction between 2 highly correlated phenomena: the chemical casca…

> I get the feeling you aren't aware of the hard problem of consciousness, so I'll leave this here for you to read up on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness. Are you familiar with concepts like qualia? I recommend reading that wiki too.

This is, again, saying a problem is hard, and then concluding that since we can't solve it, the solution is mind! Which again remains a premature conclusion.

> The problem for you is that you still fail to draw a distinction between 2 highly correlated phenomena: the chemical cascade & the perception of red.

No, that's not a failure. That's my entire point. There aren't two phenomena: they are the same thing.

> We can put someone under anesthesia, shine red light into their eyes & they will still have the chemical cascade, but will not experience or perceive red. How do you square this circle?

Surely you can see how inserting a chemical into the brain might change or interfere with the chemical cascade? If you assume that the chemical cascade IS the perception of red, then interfering with the chemical cascade preventing the perception of red makes perfect sense.

> I've looked at brains under the microscope... never once have I seen a red triangle, or green square, or blue circle, yet here they are in my mind. Again your confusing correlation for the thing itself.

I must admit I got a chuckle out of this. Is this what you think I'm claiming? This is definitely not what I'm claiming. I'm just going to quote this so you can't retract it.

> those neural imaging techniques are all largely about correlation, which is my point exactly.

Neural imaging is done with physical machines, which can only detect physical phenomena. "Correlating" means to take two things and show them to be related. So if you're correlating two phenomenon with machinery that can only detect physical phenomena, you can only correlate physical phenomena. If you're claiming that neural imaging shows the correlation between a chemical cascade and the processes of the mind, then the processes of the mind must be a physical phenomenon--which is my point.

> I know it's probably hard for someone who refuses to believe consciousness exists to admit that consciousness does in fact exist as a separate distinct phenomenon, so I won't try too hard to convince you.

I don't refuse to believe in consciousness--consciousness certainly exists, as electrical and chemical processes in the brain. And I wouldn't refuse to believe in consciousness as distinct from electrical and chemical reactions in the brain, if you presented any evidence for that assertion, instead of just repeating it and adding new unfounded claims.

> I'm sure with time you'll make that distinction too.

You are sure of a great many things.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#254

Post by netwanderer3 »

seisvelas wrote: post #153
kerkeslager wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem goes at least as far back as Plato and the allegory of the cave. Plato spread this concept that there was a difference between the body and mind or soul, and Western culture has never really recovered from the stupidity of that idea. There's really no evidence or justification for it. Your mind and your body are the same thing.

My Python code ultimately runs on a circuit, but it feels lacking to say that my program is the circuitry. The program itself only has meaning inside of my mind, and in fact could exist equally well on paper. It exists conceptually even if it never manifests physically. So where do concepts like this exist, given that they don't exist as matter? What do we mean when we say that something like 1+1=2 is true - that tha…

I like your analogy and do have a similar view in that the total consciousness level of all humans combined, at any given point in time, creates a separate universe of our own. This total consciousness level has its own rules and principles created by us which also evolves over time. It shapes all of our belief systems, actions, behaviors, etc. throughout various human civilizations in history.

It operates almost like a mind of the entire human race just hovering above all of us. This concept is pretty abstract but like you said, at any given point in time this total soul may not exist physically, but it does exist conceptually in our exclusive reality and it too constantly evolves together with us.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#255

Post by teh_klev »

silencio wrote: post #251
teh_klev wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's actually not controversial at all among the people actually impacted by it. Confirmation bias much? > a lot of people are transphobic and are offended that trans people are allowed access to gender-affirming medical care. Again, stats please, ideally by country so we might have a proper discussion. > Besides, nobody's asking for statistics on how many people are satisfied with surgery to remove cancer, or othe…

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S115813600... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19040622 https://www.erudit.org/fr/revues/ss/2013-v59-n1-ss0746/10174... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2265.... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10508-014-0300-... https://www.academia.edu/2236936/Trans_Mental_Health_Study_2... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1024086…

> I also find it incredibly disingenuous that everyone asking for The Statistics

If you're making claims then you need to present evidence.

> mutilation performed on intersex people,

Intersex people are not trans-people, intersex is a genetic defect. Don't conflate and insult intersex people.

> Geesh, I'm actually kind of mad about it... as someone that has given birth to a child and about due with another one, I would love for HN commenters to talk about pelvic pain, vulvodynia, 4th degree tears, incontinence, prolapse, and other incredibly common postpartum issues that might require surgical intervention to the same degree that gender affirming surgeries are being questioned.

I'm guessing from the fact you've given birth then you're a biological woman. The unfortunate side effects on your body has nothing to do with the discussion in hand, and is verging on a non-sequitur.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#256

Post by Dwarfield »

Damn, this really hits home for me. My brother got prescribed statins and one day the family had found out he'd stopped because he didn't believe in it and they didn't feel like they were doing anything.

He's one of the most scientific guys I know but began giving conspiracy theory/anti vaxx sort of answers of how you can't trust medical studies all the time. When asked why he still takes his hypertension meds and trusts the literature there, he couldn't answer and he said it's just a feeling. The family was pretty astounded. Honestly felt as if someone you know suddenly started believing antivax or say flat earth ideas is the closest way I can describe it.

I was explaining how inconsistent his thinking was, bordering on delusional. If the truth was that the statins affected him psychologically, I can see why he'd chose to hide it when his wife and parents are grilling him for it.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#258

Post by dr_dshiv »

kerkeslager wrote: post #235
dr_dshiv wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like reading ignorant things like this because it helps show why we really need more classical education in society. If you'd actually read some Plato, as opposed to summaries, I'd be shocked if you could keep the same belief. It's just so damn good for thinking with. But prior to Plato, the Pythagorean Philolaus wrote that sensation/experience comes from the interaction between the soul (greek: psyche) and the bod…

> If you'd actually read some Plato, as opposed to summaries, I'd be shocked if you could keep the same belief. I guess that means you're shocked.

You mean you've read some Plato? That's great. I'm most inspired by Phaedo, Gorgias and Timaeus. I think it's really important to stay attuned to the Pythagorean tradition, which seemed to be Plato's largest philosophical influence.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#259

Post by _8ljf »

truth_be_told wrote: post #237
_8ljf wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“In the Asian world, traditional Systems of Medicine focus on "holistic" treatment” [rant on] I believe the term you’re looking for here is “fabulist bullshit”. “the general public often calls Western Medicine, "Allopathy with side-effects"” Aaaand… No, it doesn’t. SCAM calls it that. Which is ironic, as “Allopathy” is a term coined by Hahnemann to mean “Everything BUT Homeopathy”, and that was in a day when “Western…

WTH ? That is a nice rant but one with some validity :-) First see my other responses in this thread so i don't have to repeat myself. >Real medicine does in fact study and treat the whole person. In Theory; Current practice has all but forgotten this. That is why many Physicians themselves are looking at Yoga, Meditation, TCM, Ayurveda etc. to supplement their treatment. >Medicine [which works] is just a rolling bug…

“In Theory; Current practice has all but forgotten this. That is why many Physicians themselves are looking at Yoga, Meditation, TCM, Ayurveda etc. to supplement their treatment.”

Eh, no. If many Physicians are looking at TCM, Ayurveda, etc†, it’s because there’s piles of Money and Ego in it. Shock: some physicians really do miss the Good Old Days of “Doctor-as-God” Paternalistic Medicine, and are only too delighted to bring it all back for their neurotic wealthy patients who miss it too.

“The point is not to throw away centuries of empirical evidence on what has worked regardless of theoretical models used to explain them.’

Centuries of “empirical evidence”?

Get. Tae. Fuck. And take your Appeals to Antiquity and Special Pleading bollocks, and stick them up your ass with all the other balls that Gwyneth Paltrow and Alex Jones and the CPC are flogging this week too.

Because I wasn’t born yesterday.

Unlike you.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=bait+and+switch&category...

https://archive.org/details/thirtyyearsinmo00chrigoog

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families...

--

†I exclude Yoga and Meditation here because (ignoring any woo-woo gateway bullshit) those are essentially Exercise and Relaxation, which along with Diet are standard mainstream medical advice. Only real difference being that Medicine says “Eat right and exercise, or you will Dieeeee!‡”, whereas AltMed says “Eat right and exercise and stick our super-magical expensive coffee up your ass, and you will have an orgasm in your pants!”

‡Okay, it doesn’t really say “Die”, but that’s what neurotic high-maintenance muppets hear anyway; which is what makes them such suckers for the AltMed con. And I really wouldn’t care about that because that’s their funeral, except that they make others dead too.

Re: Medications that change who we are

#260

Post by GordonS »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #88
crimsonalucard wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blood pressure medicine does make you more calm and this is known anecdotally among the medical community. I know this because I know of medical students taking it before giving a speech. Literally the medicine is well known for making you perfectly calm. You know that magic pill that can get rid of your approach anxiety? I hear, this is it, though I never tried. I'm wondering if anyone more in the "know" can comment…

Be careful: There are multiple classes of blood pressure medications with different mechanisms of action. You're referring to beta blockers, which can reduce the stress response in your sympathetic nervous system. > Literally the medicine is well known for making you perfectly calm. > You know that magic pill that can get rid of your approach anxiety? I hear, this is it, They're not magic. They won't make you perfect…

I know someone who suffers from anxiety and takes propranolol. She says it helps with the physical symptoms of anxiety (e.g. racing heart), but doesn't help prevent anxiety in the first place. Still, she finds this somewhat useful, as feeling physical symptoms of anxiety can cause a sort of feedback loop, where it leads to more anxiety.

So yes, while beta blockers can help, they are no panacea.

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