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Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#251

Post by throwaway743 »

iforgotpassword wrote: post #65
sametmax wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1. Even as an adult, If I could do it all again, I would avoid school as much as possible. School is an upgrade from child labor, but I now have enough experience to know it's a downgrade from what I can learn of my own. Not saying every kid should do the same of course. But personnally, after being in 11 schools, including fancy private ones and ones in poor neighbourhoods, I found extremly few decent teachers, a v…

> Also, I don't miss having to fight for social acceptance, the bullying, the stress and pressure nor the hypocrisy of the ones in charge. Ironically this is somehow the most valuable lessons learned during school, since you ultimately have to deal with this shit throughout your life in most career paths. So at least you got prepared for that.

Oddly enough I never got bullied in school, but did (and still do from time to time) get bullied upon entering the workforce.

Never fought for social acceptance, just kind of fell into place. Actively pursuing it would exhaust energy that could otherwise be directed to productive or fun activities.

Stress, pressure, and hypocrisy seem like natural occurrences. But yeah, unless someone has 0 responsibilities (work, life, family, hobbies, etc) these aspects of life are nearly, if not completely, impossible to never encounter

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#252

Post by saagarjha »

jolmg wrote: post #197
saagarjha wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean, here we are, and I can only remember like 3 usernames in this community. It's not like I'm friends with them either or anything. I think like 99% of us don't really know anybody else here. I’m here a lot, and I have a list of probably a hundred or so usernames in my head that either post often or have meaningful contributions, many linked to real-life identities. I doubt I could recognize any if they walked…

The thing is that the usernames are not very prominent in this UI. They're even always grayed out. It's like it's optimized to not distract users with posts' owners unless they need them. I probably could recognize more if posts came accompanied by profile pictures or something that stands out that's somewhat unique to users. As it is, my brain doesn't have to register anything about the user to read their posts. The…

> It's like it's optimized to not distract users with posts' owners unless they need them.

I’m fairly sure this is an intentional choice. I can often tell the author from the subject and tone, though ;)

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#253

Post by DreamScatter »

sanmon3186 wrote: post #69
oddity wrote: post #5

If you're a kid and do the cost/benefit analysis, going to school looks like a dumb decision and a huge opportunity cost for time that could otherwise be used for things with known reward (playing). Bullying, exams, homework, sleep disruption, etc is all cost. What does the student believe they get they out of it? The pathway from school to job is nebulous to young kids who don't yet need money to live. As kids get o…

> Bullying, exams, homework, sleep disruption, etc is all cost. Aren't these fact of adult life too, that children need to learn?

You are proposing that children should learn to accept bullying and sleep deprivation because adults experience it. This would create a perpetual cycle of each generation passing on the bullying and sleep deprivation to the next. That vicius cycle exists, but it is not necessarily the only possible life cycle.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#254

Post by jopsen »

unsignedint wrote: post #240
jopsen wrote: post #75

> In some cases they even decide on the colour of pupils' underwear. Wow, Not to be judgmental, but maybe Japanese schools are a bit too strict... I've never seen evidence that strict discipline creates good humans. Last I checked modern pedagogy teaches us otherwise.

This is certainly more exception than norm. But overall, strict rules on where it would be considered more of personal choices elsewhere were governed by such rule. Back in where I was in middle school (close to 30 years ago, so certainly things have changed), I had: 1. Mandatory close clipped hair for male (repealed within first year I've attended -- I heard it took like 4 years of school council's effort do make th…

> This is certainly more exception than norm.

I certainly expected so, I should probably have picked a less exceptional example from the article..

Still regulating color of shoes and socks seems a bit unnecessary. Granted school uniforms are common in some parts of the world (personally, I would find it rather extreme).

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#255

Post by known »

electriclove wrote: post #123
known wrote: post #94

I think schools should teach/protect kids from Machiavellianism (manipulate/deceive others) Psychopathy (lack of remorse/empathy) Sadism (pleasure in suffering of others) Narcissism (egotism/self-obsession)

Agreed! If you find one that does this or have recommendations on how to teach about this, please share. As a parent, I want to impart knowledge on these things to my kids. We have always focused on teaching compassion and kindness. The real world is full of all kinds of people, with all kinds of values or lack of, and all kinds of parenting or lack of.

https://news.slashdot.org/story/19/12/23/1543203/why-so-many... has some more details

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#256

Post by known »

electriclove wrote: post #123
known wrote: post #94

I think schools should teach/protect kids from Machiavellianism (manipulate/deceive others) Psychopathy (lack of remorse/empathy) Sadism (pleasure in suffering of others) Narcissism (egotism/self-obsession)

Agreed! If you find one that does this or have recommendations on how to teach about this, please share. As a parent, I want to impart knowledge on these things to my kids. We have always focused on teaching compassion and kindness. The real world is full of all kinds of people, with all kinds of values or lack of, and all kinds of parenting or lack of.

Kids should be taught about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_tricks whenever we feel they're ready to absorb/rationalize them;

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#257

Post by omikun »

doublement wrote: post #185
dgzl wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was an exchange student in high school to Japan and I have never seen groups of people more dedicated to both studying and hobbies, especially at the grade-school age. There are private companies that offer study rooms that HS students rent every weekend. Kendo, soccer, baseball and basketball clubs were really huge at the school I was visiting.

The clubs you listed all involve strenuous physical activity... and are clubs. People can pursue them as hobbies, of course, but I think for most people a hobby is something personal, and perhaps pointless, outside of the sound mind/sound body routine. EDIT: Kinda surprised at the downvotes! Is it really so controversial to consider a club activity less of a "real" hobby than something self-organized?

I was going to agree with you since hobby, for me, is more of a solitary activity. But then I do know several people at work who would say soccer or basketball is their hobby, something they play regularly and look forward to doing. Although kendo sounds like it would be difficult to keep up outside of school. But I have not lived in Japan to know how popular it is outside of school.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#258

Post by giardini »

aidenn0 wrote: post #220
giardini wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" putting your hand in it[fire] for 20 years" ? Sorry, bad metaphor, too extreme. Nobody can do or imagine doing that. As for the sword cartoon you linked to: there was nothing better than getting my first Boy Scout knife. Within a few days I had blooded my blade by cutting myself, thereby learning new respect for a tool that lasted decades. My experience is that every boy cuts himself once with his pocket knife, and…

> I saw only one case of physical bullying in 24 years of school. I was never bullied, perhaps being too tall and too willing to engage people in conversation. Yes, being a tall extravert will discourage bullying. I was 4'8" when I started 7th grade, but 5'10" when I started 9th grade, so I saw the difference rather drastically. (FWIW I was personally physically bullied well more than the one time you witnessed, and…

I was not an extrovert. Quite the contrary.

I have little doubt that (height) matters: it puts off males who have even begun to challenge me if I stretch out my arms in even the most non-threatening manner. Seeing that someone can reach you a full foot before you can reach them may put off aggression.

I had two classmates who were significantly shorter. Their personalities contrasted: one was confrontational and aggressive, often got into fights and did not do nearly as well as the other who was quiet, studious and was the first boy I knew who had a hobby: I was astonished how much knowledge he had acquired from collecting postage stamps.

I was aware that these classmates were physically vulnerable but I could only help by being a friend. In general, the shorter men I have met tend to excel in professional life.

I still think the "hand in fire" metaphor is too far-fetched. The best I've seen is someone putting a hand over a candle for about 30 seconds. He was drunk (which may account for the time) yet withdrew his hand voluntarily before others could intervene.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#259

Post by pbhjpbhj »

coldtea wrote: post #246
sametmax wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but should not have to learn about fire by putting your hand in it for 20 years. In a room full of pyromaniacs calling themself firefighters. As a defenseless kid. It looks like this: https://imgur.com/gallery/YiqlS Without the fun of it

Kids, since millennia, had hanged out and played in communities with kids of the same roughly age (and some bigger and scarier) before mandatory education / school was a thing... It's not like absence of school meant kids would just be alone in their homes...

But, why do you say same-aged children? In the generally smaller communities of the past having [lots of] children of the same year of age would be much rarer.

In the village I grew up in the out-of-school friend groups were often across several years of age; and that's from a background of schooling.

Kids I know now, that are non-schooled, have very broad age-groups of friends and seem, to me, to be much more comfortable with company of any age.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#260

Post by throwaway49872 »

Pigo wrote: post #120
claudeganon wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social order in modern Japan is ruthlessly maintained through group pressure, extreme enforcement of hierarchy, and deference to various forms of authority. While many will try to tell you in some Orientalist fiction that this is inherent to the Japanese people, it’s actually more the byproduct of the postwar, American-designed order that rehabilitated the former fascists as a “conservative” parliamentary party and i…

There are other Oriental countries with a similar focus on putting the group before the individual. America has had a lot of influence on a lot of places, and certainly not all for the best, but how could America have influenced a place into a behaving a way that is completely foreign to America?

> how could America have influenced a place into a behaving a way that is completely foreign to America

Authoritarianism is hardly "completely foreign" to America.

But even if we ignore this, US government has a long established pattern of supporting any movement that opposes left wing politics across the globe to the point of funding coups.

The list is very long: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

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