Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#251

Post by celticmusic » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

mbostleman wrote: post #61

richmarr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the direct buyer is the one who has the most information and the most control. In contrast the end user has almost no information, so punishing them is both unfair and ineffective.

So now that you have the information, I trust you have stopped purchasing these products beginning today?

hey, great job. You've turned a discussion about child exploitation into a discussion about whether some random person on the internet will stop buying electronics.

It's great to see where your priorities are.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#252

Post by microtherion » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 7:40 PM UTC

Robotbeat wrote: post #96

I found this is very insightful thread on this lawsuit and context behind it: https://mobile.twitter.com/enn_nafnlaus/status/1206896495993... 0) lawyers suing have questionable history BUT 1) Child labor in Africa is a serious problem that needs to be addressed, and just about anything sourced from Africa will have this problem. 2) The Kamoto mine in question is a copper mine. Cobalt is a secondary product. (One coul…

Thanks for the extra info and the nuanced view! I agree that this kind of child labor should be stopped. In general, I also think that activist pressure, even if it is sometimes wrong about the specifics, is helpful to bring about positive change.

Apple has made a lot of progress on environmental and supplier labor issues over the last couple of years. And I'm pretty sure that getting picketed by activists and other pressure tactics played some role in that.

https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple_SR_2... https://images.apple.com/environment/pdf/Apple_Environmental...

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#253

Post by qaq » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 7:52 PM UTC

dgudkov wrote: post #205

papreclip wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People really seem to be sharpening the axe for our big tech companies these days. Personally I find it disturbing. These companies are a river of prosperity for our people, especially software developers

Big tech companies maybe don't put kids into mines, but they have other ethical issues (privacy, manipulation with public opinion, etc). I don't think anyone can reliably tell that their issues are more ethical or less ethical than child slavery.

"I don't think anyone can reliably tell that their issues are more ethical or less ethical than child slavery" are you seriously comparing targeting algorithms and child slavery and children dying in mining accidents?

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#254

Post by shkkmo » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 8:01 PM UTC

Nasrudith wrote: post #210

DSingularity wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raise public awareness? I think they are seeking remedy. Sad that the courts are so slanted in the favor of corporate interests. Why do these cases get dismissed?

Because they are seeking remedy from the wrong parties in a fungible market without proof of more direct involvement. It being in "corporate interest" doesn't mean it is wrong. To be frank they are acting a lot like extortionists.

That's pretty harsh language to use against families whose children died mining the materials for your smart phone, electric bike and green energy grid.

A "fungible market" does not make slavery ok, nor does it excuse child labor. Indeed, the availability of alternative sources would seem to make patronizing companies that support this type of bevaior more inexcusable.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#255

Post by nybble41 » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 8:01 PM UTC

thinkmassive wrote: post #126

MS90 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not disagreeing with you, but I would be surprised if they're buying it directly from the mine and not from some sort of market/middleman/third party company. I wouldn't hold my breath for extensive receipts and documentation either. The miners pictured in the article don't even have shoes and the "hammers" they're given appear to be two pieces of rebar welded together. I'd be surprised to find much documentation at…

FTA... Q: But I'm asking you, is it possible that these companies can claim that you can't prove that they're actually linked to the cobalt? A: Certainly the supply chain is opaque. It is complex. But the plaintiffs all were injured and killed at mines owned by companies that have been publicly disclosed as sellers of cobalt to our defendants.

So no real connection at all, then. Nice of them to admit it. Why are they suing these unrelated tech companies, then, and not the ones that actually sent the kids to work in the mines—i.e. themselves?

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#256

Post by shkkmo » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 8:05 PM UTC

leoc wrote: post #72

shkkmo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick search shows that past lawsuits against Nestle and other companies for child labor in their supply chain listed consumers as the plaintiffs claiming damage from false advertising and non -disclosure [1]. These cases have ended up being dismissed. The difference is that in this case the children and their families are the actual plaintiffs which presumably changes the legal merits. I still suspect that this ca…

> I think the point is that these lawsuits are intended to raise public awareness of the issue which will ideally put pressure the companies being sued to institute voluntary policing of their supply chain. Beyond the legal merits, tech companies have been talking about "conflict minerals" for a while. You could certainly doubt how seriously committed they are to resolving the minerals-sourcing issues, or even what t…

Are you aware of any organizations that rate electronic companies or battery manufacturers supply chains based on the use of child labor and or other morally questionable behavior? I would like to direct my purchasing power to companies that act ethically to source their materials. It doesn't seem like we can trust companies' own assertions in these areas.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#257

Post by sharpneli » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 8:13 PM UTC

celticmusic wrote: post #249

sharpneli wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning cobalt alltogether? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt#Applications You’d literally make usage of an element illegal due to that. For me it sounds bit of an overreaction. Also it would be more than tad unfair for the cobalt mines not in DRC to have to close up.

this is a strawman and you should be ashamed of yourself. You cannot find any posts by me on this forum in which I've advocated banning Cobalt all together. Find a better response.

I misunderstood then due to the examples. As child porn is recognizeable.

But cobalt is just cobalt. You have no way of telling where it came from. Humans have faces, fingerprints and genes that allow us to have documentation that yes this person is a citizen and not an illegal immigrant, so you cannot use documentation for one person to slip by another that easily.

There is no such thing for cobalt. A document that states this 20 tons of cobalt is not dug up by kids applies just as well to a 20 tons that actually was dug up by kids.

That issue was with blood diamonds. A semilegit mine sold it’s own diamonds and blood diamonds as it’s own.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#258

Post by nybble41 » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 8:21 PM UTC

richmarr wrote: post #76

mbostleman wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now that you have the information, I trust you have stopped purchasing these products beginning today?

Information, and control . All of the products I can buy may or may not contain this unthetical cobalt. I don't know which, and my personal buying choice doesn't effect anything. What are you proposing, that everyone with a smartphone or a computer be sued? How will that work?

> All of the products I can buy may or may not contain this unthetical cobalt. I don't know which, and my personal buying choice doesn't effect anything.

All of the stock these corporations can buy may or may not contain this unethically-sourced cobalt. They don't know which, and their corporate buying choices don't affect anything.

Judging from these comments, the bar seems to be set at "if you can't prove the product doesn't contain unethically-sourced materials, don't buy it". That standard would apply equally well to end users. Of course you can't simply trust that your suppliers aren't lying to you, or that their suppliers aren't lying to them, so you have to be personally involved in auditing the entire process from mining to final production and delivery.

Or we could just be reasonable and agree that it's sufficient to avoid knowing or reckless involvement with unethical suppliers, and hold those who actually endanger their workers or lie about the sources of the materials they're selling responsible for their own crimes.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#259

Post by celticmusic » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 8:28 PM UTC

sharpneli wrote: post #257

celticmusic wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is a strawman and you should be ashamed of yourself. You cannot find any posts by me on this forum in which I've advocated banning Cobalt all together. Find a better response.

I misunderstood then due to the examples. As child porn is recognizeable. But cobalt is just cobalt. You have no way of telling where it came from. Humans have faces, fingerprints and genes that allow us to have documentation that yes this person is a citizen and not an illegal immigrant, so you cannot use documentation for one person to slip by another that easily. There is no such thing for cobalt. A document that…

you're getting lost in the example and losing the idea.

The idea is this: You forcibly change the demand to change the behavior of the producer. And there are plenty of examples of us doing this as a society (successfully).

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#260

Post by sharpneli » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 8:33 PM UTC

celticmusic wrote: post #259

sharpneli wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I misunderstood then due to the examples. As child porn is recognizeable. But cobalt is just cobalt. You have no way of telling where it came from. Humans have faces, fingerprints and genes that allow us to have documentation that yes this person is a citizen and not an illegal immigrant, so you cannot use documentation for one person to slip by another that easily. There is no such thing for cobalt. A document that…

you're getting lost in the example and losing the idea. The idea is this: You forcibly change the demand to change the behavior of the producer. And there are plenty of examples of us doing this as a society (successfully).

In the successful cases it is easy for the demand to recognize what they are getting. Employer just has to demand passport and they can avoid hiring illegals. Just looking at the person is enough. Same with child porn. Same with anything else where we have curbed demand side.

How would you say Microsoft is able to recognize where the cobalt came from?

I can’t really see any way here that would not be a de facto ban for the whole material.