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Collapse OS

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Re: Collapse OS

#251

Post by bcaa7f3a8bbc »

pjc50 wrote: post #250
bcaa7f3a8bbc wrote: post #54

I don't think just developing a Z80 operating system is enough. The whole ecosystem needs to be preserved. In agriculture, we have the doomsday seed vault [0] just for this purpose. If we anticipate collapse of the current economic system or society, I think we should build a doomsday computer vault, that keeps everything we need to rebuild the computing industry in a underground bunker. It keeps everything we need i…

> The whole ecosystem needs to be preserved. Indeed. It takes a civilisation to build an iPhone. I don't think people appreciate that even within the highest-tech manufacturing industries there is a lot of tacit knowledge. People shake their fists about "technology transfer" to China, and before that Japan; but that's taken decades for them to reach parity. And that's with running, copyable examples and all the parts…

> It takes a civilisation to build an iPhone.

The point here is that we don't need to build an iPhone, we only need a radio. Building a 8080 is much simpler, the USSR did it, the East Germany did it, China did it, all around the same time without too much difficulty. It's certainly would be much more difficult if the current civilization collapsed, but I think the author doesn't anticipate a total collapse, just a breakdown of the current economic system, thus it should be doable.

> Similarly the process for making a nuclear bomb can be written in a short paper, but few countries have successfully replicated it.

My understanding is that the physics of achieving the nuclear explosion itself is relatively straightforward. The real difficulties are to produce the weapon-grade materials needed, and to transform the explosion to an useful weapon, all under external sanctions, and even sabotage.

Taiwan had a nuclear weapon project in 1970s, significant progress was made in the beginning, if the U.S. didn't discover it and dismantle everything, it would be interesting to see how it turned out to be.

Re: Collapse OS

#252

Post by boomlinde »

maire wrote: post #205
bcaa7f3a8bbc wrote: post #54

I don't think just developing a Z80 operating system is enough. The whole ecosystem needs to be preserved. In agriculture, we have the doomsday seed vault [0] just for this purpose. If we anticipate collapse of the current economic system or society, I think we should build a doomsday computer vault, that keeps everything we need to rebuild the computing industry in a underground bunker. It keeps everything we need i…

If you like Unix, Cromix was built on the z80.

I recommend also checking out Fuzix, a modern small-platform UNIX-like which targets Z80 among others

Re: Collapse OS

#253

Post by flohofwoe »

bcaa7f3a8bbc wrote: post #251
pjc50 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole ecosystem needs to be preserved. Indeed. It takes a civilisation to build an iPhone. I don't think people appreciate that even within the highest-tech manufacturing industries there is a lot of tacit knowledge. People shake their fists about "technology transfer" to China, and before that Japan; but that's taken decades for them to reach parity. And that's with running, copyable examples and all the parts…

> It takes a civilisation to build an iPhone. The point here is that we don't need to build an iPhone, we only need a radio. Building a 8080 is much simpler, the USSR did it, the East Germany did it, China did it, all around the same time without too much difficulty. It's certainly would be much more difficult if the current civilization collapsed, but I think the author doesn't anticipate a total collapse, just a br…

> ...East Germany did it

Not sure about the Soviet Union, but East Germany had to "import" complete production lines from Western Germany in order to bootstrap their chip production. Of course the West prohibited exporting such sensible technology to the East, and there's some wild stories around involving the secret service, setting up a proxy chip manufacturing company in Western Germany, shutting this down, and "losing" the production lines, which showed up a few months later in East Germany.

But there will be plenty of Z80 and other 8-bit chips to scavenge after a civilizational collapse, and those chips are simple and slow enough to be used in computers built from breadboards and wires.

Re: Collapse OS

#254

Post by jacobush »

coryrc wrote: post #128
guidoism wrote: post #86

I love projects like these. One that has me fascinated is the idea of building a computer than can last centuries. Can it be done? - Will the ICs last that long, can they? - How will it get electricity if the sockets and voltage standards change? - How do you make it durable to dropping, water, dust, etc? - What sort of writable storage can last that long without degrading? - How do you edit fonts as language changes…

I have some answers 1. Yes; 10 C reduction in temperature means doubling of life. I've known pentiums to last 10 years at 60 C+; just running processors at 30*C instead is 80 years minimum. Main thing is to use leaded solder so you don't get electromigration problems. 2. Solar panels and batteries. Battery voltage is chemical and fixed by physics; nickel-iron batteries can be rebuilt and last forever. Solar panels ca…

5. Default to a ROM which is made in such a way it is basically immortal.

Re: Collapse OS

#255

Post by jacobtomlinson »

flohofwoe wrote: post #253
bcaa7f3a8bbc wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It takes a civilisation to build an iPhone. The point here is that we don't need to build an iPhone, we only need a radio. Building a 8080 is much simpler, the USSR did it, the East Germany did it, China did it, all around the same time without too much difficulty. It's certainly would be much more difficult if the current civilization collapsed, but I think the author doesn't anticipate a total collapse, just a br…

> ...East Germany did it Not sure about the Soviet Union, but East Germany had to "import" complete production lines from Western Germany in order to bootstrap their chip production. Of course the West prohibited exporting such sensible technology to the East, and there's some wild stories around involving the secret service, setting up a proxy chip manufacturing company in Western Germany, shutting this down, and "l…

Are there any good books/podcasts/documentaries about this? Sounds fascinating.

Re: Collapse OS

#256

Post by ajuc »

fernly wrote: post #90
rwmj wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My novel idea (feel free to use it!) is about someone taking a 1980s computer back to the Second World War. It's used by the Allies to decrypt Ultra intelligence and is treated like a kind of holy relic - only a tiny set of "high priests" are allowed near it, fewer still can touch it, and because of its importance they go to extraordinary lengths to ensure it can never be damaged by anything from bombs to power glitc…

Yeah, no. I've handled parts of Whirlwind[1], a vacuum tube machine from just post-WWII, and the gap from that to a C-64 or any other circa-1980 machine is just too great. They were using discrete wiring, resistors and wires soldered to the bases of the vacuum tubes. The Whirlwind was the first machine to use core memory, and the 4K core memory unit is a box about the size of a phone booth. I don't know if PCBs exist…

I'm pretty sure you're wrong. People are very good at pattern recognition. You don't need to understand the physics to check lots of combinations of inputs and deduce what this black box do.

Re: Collapse OS

#257

Post by pjc50 »

bcaa7f3a8bbc wrote: post #251
pjc50 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole ecosystem needs to be preserved. Indeed. It takes a civilisation to build an iPhone. I don't think people appreciate that even within the highest-tech manufacturing industries there is a lot of tacit knowledge. People shake their fists about "technology transfer" to China, and before that Japan; but that's taken decades for them to reach parity. And that's with running, copyable examples and all the parts…

> It takes a civilisation to build an iPhone. The point here is that we don't need to build an iPhone, we only need a radio. Building a 8080 is much simpler, the USSR did it, the East Germany did it, China did it, all around the same time without too much difficulty. It's certainly would be much more difficult if the current civilization collapsed, but I think the author doesn't anticipate a total collapse, just a br…

> breakdown of the current economic system

As the author themselves admits, this requires a very narrow band of Goldilocks catastrophe. Not catastrophic enough that you still have electricity, but catastrophic enough that all the plants on this list are destroyed or rendered unusable or embargoed from you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabricat...

How is that going to work exactly?

No, it's a fantasy disaster, like Day of the Triffids and all the other John Wyndham style "cozy catastrophe" novels.

Real catastrophe is slow and grinding. Think "decline and fall of the Roman Empire" - a multi-lifetime process. Or something like Venezuela, where crumbling power infrastructure took out their aluminium smelter. This causes it to freeze solid and is unrecoverable without rebuilding the crucibles.

Re: Collapse OS

#258

Post by AltmousGadfly »

Are Z80 systems and alike very common? Seems like a niche hobby.

I'm thinking old phones, tablets, and portable computers will be more common. I keep several bootable USB drives which have lots of ebooks, audio books, videos, software, and games along with several old laptops/netbooks which were free. I also keep some of those files on microSD cards to make them accessible with tablets.

IMO collapse will be very boring so lots of books, audio files, video games, and music would be nice to have if it can be run off small off grid solar setups.

Re: Collapse OS

#259

Post by jotm »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #120
blfr wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're supposed to download it now and keep around. Just like preppers do with MREs and ammunition.

I said this further up the thread, but I'd rather have a raspberry pi, some screen cribbed from a smartphone, and some flash sticks. Why plan for less than the raspberry pi level?

Or you know, a laptop. I've got like 6 of them piling up dust and all they need is 19V. The oldest from 2008, the batteries on 3 have sadly failed being unused, everything else still works.

I've also got 2 desktops from 2003ish (Athlon64 and Pentium III), they probably work, too, although they're stored in a garage (along with some other stuff like VCRs and CRT displays).

Not to mention routers old and new, all running Linux.

Yeah, why plan for less? All I need to do is scavenge around my property :D

Though a garden, livestock and a greenhouse will be a much higher priority. No one needs any sort of computing when they can't eat.

Re: Collapse OS

#260

Post by dexen »

Scapeghost wrote: post #225
rapind wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see a log being kept in orbit. Like every 10 years it's rotated (FIFO, oldest comes down, new one is launched) with a large delta so that it might survive our current civilization in case of global / climate craziness.

What about burying something on the moon, with monoliths and radio sources marking its location?

Gravity is a pretty reliable signal; doesn't decay much on million-years scale, and doesn't get obscure much either.

Not to imply those were from unnatural processes, more to indicate that basic spacefaring technology implies ability to detect such: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_concentration_(astronomy)

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