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OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

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Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#251
post #43
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but lacking in sufficient charisma to create more than a small following. IMO it's not that Linus has more charisma than Theo, it's simply the network effect of one project over the other.

It wasn't Linus; it was RedHat, SuSE, and the rest of the early commercial Linux endeavours.

Right, this is what I said.

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#252
Hyperthreading is cool in theory, but most workloads that take full advantage of it are usually filled with code that is doing nothing but following pointers. It is generally unoptimized code or code written in an interpreted language that doesn't focus on speed anyway. It also requires the program to take advantage of multiple threads in the first place. This means languages like python don't benefit at all but code written in C/C++ are so optimized that hyperthreading does nothing but divide the cache into two halves.

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Browsers have mitigations in place, don't they? Aren't they enough, at least on paper?

I can't provide proper citations right now but there has been working exploits of some the latest CPU bugs using just Javascript in a browser as if we're browsing regular websites.

If you could provide citations at some other time that would be great!

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#254
post #165
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no docker support on *BSD unfortunately :| ...this can be a show stopper

no jail support on linux..

you miss the other point of Docker: cross-platform dev (and only occasionally cross-platform deployment)...

I can run same set of docker containers that make up an app, including scaling multiple instances of each container, on (1) my macbook, (2) my ubuntu linux laptop, (3) my centos server (4) my windows laptop, (5) my other windows laptop, (6) my client's windows server.

I can do this without bothering to configure my app specifically, or without even knowing or learning what the dependencies of my app are!

BSD's are the "loner children" playing by themselves while everyone expects to have everything running everywhere and expect it by default...

Sorry, but unless effort is made to embrace kuber and docker, the niche will shrink.

One way out of the problem is to have entities like the FreeBSD foundation the OpenBSD devs invest effort into Docker development to make it capable of running BSD containers inside it... but this will never happen because of endless ego :|

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Stallman is very off-putting to many with how unabashed and unashamed he is about some of his more extreme progressive views. Unfortunately for him, that excludes almost half of the potential support he would receive.

I'm a right-wing libertarian, and I've never felt excluded or anything like that because of his leftist views. This for many reasons: 1) He's not a hypocrite in any way. He's honest and you can tell that he has truly thought about his opinions. 2) In my country, I get bombarded with a ralentless stream of leftist ideology. The worst kind of leftism: the lazy 'slogan' leftism, from people too stupid to realize the ful…

> 1) He's not a hypocrite in any way. He's honest and you can tell that he has truly thought about his opinions.

I think that's crucial. I remember he was discussing one of the aspects of software freedom with my friend and she said "I don't agree." He answered: "No problem, you have your view, I have mine, we don't have to agree on everything."

It struck me as I had expected he'll try to convince and win her over his ideas.

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Stallman is very off-putting to many with how unabashed and unashamed he is about some of his more extreme progressive views. Unfortunately for him, that excludes almost half of the potential support he would receive.

I don't think Stallman's political views are that extreme when you consider that a lot of free software advocates are actual communists.

I think deep down all people are communists - they all like things for free.

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Stallman's political views are that extreme when you consider that a lot of free software advocates are actual communists.

I think deep down all people are communists - they all like things for free.

I disagree. Just because people like free stuff doesn't mean they want to force others (and themselves) to provide that free stuff. Some certainly do, but there are plenty who don't.

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#258

I disable hyperthreading for better performance. In my experience as a mathematician building parallel compute servers, hyperthreading generates more heat than it is worth. I can overclock further without hyperthreading, to more than overtake the faint advantage that hyperthreading offers at a given clock speed. So I now buy binned, delidded processors from Silicon Lottery, choosing the best reasonably priced speed o…

That really depends on the workload though. x264 benefits massively from hyper threading for example. Way more than the 6% performance you get from more overclocking headroom.

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#259
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why we need enormous fines for security breaches, and smaller fines just for not following best practices. Right now, only the people worried about paying more for performance, dev time, or security engineers are listened to. We need the legal teams inside companies to have something more substantial than possible negative publicity with which to motivate the CEO and CTO as a countervailing balance. Just like…

The problem with fines is that they happen after the fact and only if the worst actually happens. Tons of companies have totally abominable security and never get breached only out of dumb luck. So you'll still get lots of companies playing Russian Roulette where they make higher profits for ten years before they may or may not suffer a breach and get fined into oblivion, at which point they file for bankruptcy and s…

If you make the fine large enough that it may cause the company to go under, you can bet they'll buy some insurance. And you can bet the insurance companies will have some standards to reduce the risk of a company getting breached, such as doing audits regularly.

For example, if Equifax faced a fine of $5B (more than 1/4 of their market cap) instead of $500M, you can bet they'd be more serious about audits in the future. However, we've conditioned business to expect minor consequences for breaches, so security becomes an afterthought. Likewise, the $5B fine against Facebook is unlikely to change anything, though a $200-300B (20-30% market cap) fine would be much more convincing.

The point isn't necessarily to ruin companies, but to set a precedent that says these types of issues will not be tolerated. It'll force companies to get insurance, and the insurance will have an incentive to avoid collection on the policy.

Re: OpenBSD was right to disable hyperthreading [video]

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is, at least in part, a result of MINIX using a highly permissive license. It’s easier to use an open source OS in relative secrecy if you aren’t required to release your modifications. And an organization with deep technical expertise like Intel would not likely need much assistance from the community for their implementation.

> This is, at least in part, a result of MINIX using a highly permissive license. Not at all. MINIX was actually Intel's second choice, they tried first to fit Linux into their new x86 based ME. But the maintainers were uncooperative: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTY4MzM Intel then submitted similar patches to the MINIX kernel, which subsequently got accepted. https://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/intel/

And this shows that the license really isn't that critical. Vendors don't like to maintain operating systems, so they have a vested interest in upstreaming their modifications. Why maintain something yourself if you can get someone else to do it?

BSD licensed projects see plenty of contributions, they're just not as popular as Linux because of historical reasons. I and most BSD fans blame the AT&T lawsuit for BSD losing popularity and Linux gaining popularity. That being said, BSD is still quite popular, though somewhat niche.

Companies not upstreaming code will happen regardless of the license. Plenty of companies maintain Linux change sets because they're not obligated to release them, but plenty more upstream their changes when not strictly necessary. It just depends on the value proposition of releasing improvements.

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