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Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

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Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#251
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess this is cultural as well, I(anecdotally) absolutely feel shame when I am about to leave a company, or even negotiate.

Ask yourself why you feel these emotions, because the culture you're in had to have made you learn them. The companies you have worked for sure as hell do not care about you once you leave. Source: personal experience

All correct, but cultural things like these can't exactly be dispelled with logic.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#252

It's comparing apples and oranges to compare medieval peasants life and modern office work. Even today in rural areas people work around the clock in and around the house to keep everything afloat and barely survive. Sitting on your butt for 10h a day and doing intellectual work seems hard only until you try to do some farming for a while - and modern farming is nothing compared to how hard it was back then, when you…

Sure we might not work as 'hard' but at what cost? Mentally people are suffering about as much if not more. It's not unfounded nor is it even surprising that people are complaining and comparing their lives to the past.

That's OK and expected, but it's hard to compare two very different situations and life styles by looking just at time spent on the activity. Also 10 hours in office is not the same as 10 hours of working, no one works all the time. So I'm just saying that we need to compare things properly, taking all the angles into the account, rather than just cherry-picking some metrics and use it to attack "modern day capitalism"

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Milton Friedman's book "Free to Choose" is a good introduction if you're interested in more. At some point you have to acknowledge the irony at refusing to see Libertarianism as anti-poor ideology, while simultaneously pointing people to a man who worked (and trained others to work with at the University if Chicago) far right dictators like Pinochet.

I'll just refer you to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/6i0vsr/milton_f... (Ironically, you say Libertarian Friedman supported far right dictator Pinochet and the other reply says Libertarianism is for no government at all. Clearly something is amiss with these two criticisms of Libertarianism.)

Eh, I’ll take Allende’s ambassador, Orlando Letelier’s, word on the matter over a bunch of apologists on a subreddit (who largely and laughably quote what Friedman and his buddies said was there involvement). Letelier was killed by agents of Pinochet for saying as much:

https://www.thenation.com/article/the-chicago-boys-in-chile-...

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#254
post #114

The 40h a day week and modern-day work contracts come as a direct evolution of medieval servitude, with little modification. This explains the system of values that revolve around it, such as for example the notion that it's somewhat something to be ashamed of for an employee to leave its employer, while it's perfectly OK for the employer to terminate the employee at any time. The servant was not expected to leave it…

You can open your own business and run it differently, and show everyone how sucessful your approach is.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's "space labor"?

Imperial Rome enslaved the martians, and as a result creates an entire lower caste of space laborers. Over time they could not adapt to earth and their species went extinct. This resulted in the dark ages.

I want to believe

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll just refer you to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/6i0vsr/milton_f... (Ironically, you say Libertarian Friedman supported far right dictator Pinochet and the other reply says Libertarianism is for no government at all. Clearly something is amiss with these two criticisms of Libertarianism.)

Eh, I’ll take Allende’s ambassador, Orlando Letelier’s, word on the matter over a bunch of apologists on a subreddit (who largely and laughably quote what Friedman and his buddies said was there involvement). Letelier was killed by agents of Pinochet for saying as much: https://www.thenation.com/article/the-chicago-boys-in-chile-...

What's your take on dTal's assessment that libertarians are for no government at all?

If you have any evidence of advocacy for repression in any of Friedman's lifetime of his books, articles, or lectures, I'd like to see it.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"the big institutional lie” The big lie is all the lavish promises people made to their future selves. Expensive medical treatments (Medicare), retirement funds (social security/pension payments), expensive infrastructure (constant access to clean water/electricity/gas/sewage/etc). Maybe the biggest lie is pretending to be able to predict the future. All those aforementioned promises require future resources, popula…

> Expensive medical treatments Again. Universal healthcare solved that in Europe. It is expensive, but it's a shared cost that benefits everybody. > Maybe the biggest lie is pretending to be able to predict the future Maybe, but back then they didn't have the means to care for more than a few days at a time, to think about the future. If they could have done it, they would have done it.

I guess my comment was specific to the US, but pay in the medical field is vastly lower in Europe than in the US. Regardless, Europe is still subject to the biggest factor, which are demographic changes and they will have an impact on the availability of future benefits. I would say these past 20 years and maybe next 10 will have been the peak, and then there will be visible cuts in services or quality of services due to lack of people (and/or taxes) to service the debt.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In UK (before state mandated ages, ie 4yo) the level of care can be pretty grim, and it's often low skilled young women ([1]) - particular if you're poor yourself. [1] because for some reason minimum wage is reduced for younger people, like young people don't need housing or food, I don't know ...

One of the many reasons I'm glad I moved here from the UK before having kids.

Funny, I did the same thing. Describing the Icelandic preschool system is the best way I have to blow my UK friend's minds.

"No matter where you live, your child is in the catching area for a nearby preschool and is automatically enrolled there. And it's by no means a child storage facility; the primary focus is on teaching children through play and at least half the staff have a master's degree in preschool teaching. And they're fully fed. Also, it's practically free."

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#259
post #104
post #95

I think there is absolutely no need every adult person needs to work 8 hours a day for 5 days a week. We might just as well work 4 hours a day or 3 days a week. It seems to me, this is just a matter of how the market pressures people to spend as much time as possible at work vs how much work most people can tolerate. How do I know? There are countries where it is normal that both parents work to provide for their hou…

The commute may influence this. The average American commute is about 30 minutes each way. That's 1 hour round trip. Commute as a portion of work time.... 4 hrs work: 25% 5 hrs work: 20% 6 hrs work: 16.7% 7 hrs work: 14.3% 8 hrs work: 12.5% Considering you don't get paid for your commute, there is a natural incentive to work more hours.

This just reads like incentive to work longer hours for fewer days.
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