Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is not civil disobedience. Flying drones to shut down an airport is nothing like sitting in the white seats of a bus. That's a ludicrous comparison. Such drone attacks are dangerous (they do put aircrafts at risk), affect thousands of people, cause millions in damage, and, simply put, are lightweight terrorism. It is quite right that the article open with a reference to the IRA attacking Heathrow airport with em…
Of course, you are completely entitled to your opinions, but I'm not going to engage them because I don't think you're really interested in having an open discussion about this. Why do I say that? Because in response to a pre-planned demonstration from a group that has made abundantly clear that they intend to engage in acts of civil disobedience that are 100% non violent, you have used the words "drone attack", "ter…
Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow
251–260 of 260 posts
Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow
#252The level of negativity and hostility in the comments here is really disappointing to me. I agree that XR are definitely pushing the envelope on what we consider to be reasonable activism and protest. However, I also think that the old adage "desperate times call for desperate measures" applies here. Yes, there are plenty of actions being taken to combat the damage we're inflicting to this little wet rock we all call…
A group of people acted like irresponsible fuckheads and got negative pushback? What a concept.
From what I see, successful protests were based around unifying actions. Who was ultimately more impactful, the Black Panthers or MLK? Which one promoted a message which split people into groups, and which promoted a message that unified people and promoted empathy?
Flying a drone into airspace is not only irresponsible because to puts lives and property at risk, but it does nothing to promote the cause because it divides people into two groups - the people affected by delays, and the people causing those delays.
Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow
#253Earlier quoted context omitted.
Looking at this from another country, I would expect nothing else except blow back. My first thought is are we dealing with idiots, a false flag, or trolls. If this is where 'desperate measures' has led too, they are better off doing nothing. This sort of strike action isn't going to get the general population to vote green, but vote fascist.
It seems pretty effective (that's not endorsement) if you're talking about a small local protest from another country. Maybe they're actually not idiots but just people you disagree with?
Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow
#254The level of negativity and hostility in the comments here is really disappointing to me. I agree that XR are definitely pushing the envelope on what we consider to be reasonable activism and protest. However, I also think that the old adage "desperate times call for desperate measures" applies here. Yes, there are plenty of actions being taken to combat the damage we're inflicting to this little wet rock we all call…
Such actions are covered by the UK definition of terrorism: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/1
When I think of the word terrorism, and I'm sure many others think like me, I think of 9/11. Or the Las Vegas shooting. Or one of the many horrible bombings in various parts of Middle East, etc.
Those are acts that have no pre-warning, and are designed to inflict as much pain and suffering as possible, and to cause as much fear and, dare I say it, terror as possible.
What XR are intending on doing is abusing an obvious outcome of notifying civil aviation authorities that a dangerous object will be active in airspace where civilian commercial airflight is taking place. The outcome being flights are grounded and redirected, causing a lot of inconvenience to people and costing the economy potentially millions of dollars.
I think XR believes it's a 100% obvious thing that by notifying the appropriate authorities well ahead of time, all planes will be safely rerouted or grounded. If there was even the slightest chance that their actions could cause a plane crash, then I firmly believe XR would not even consider such an action.
So yes, I understand we have actual legislation that could very reasonably be used to charge the people responsible for the plan at Heathrow airport. The problem is I think that the legislation in question was designed to target something very different. If activists from XR are convicted of charges stemming from the "Terrorism Act", it becomes perfectly reasonable to label those activists as terrorists.
But then what we've actually done here is placed activists who never had the slightest intention of causing grievous harm to other people (loss of life, massive economic damage, etc) into the same category we reserve for extremists who have perpetrated genuine atrocities. That just seems completely wrong to me.
If we want to bring about legislation that criminalizes certain forms of activism that go "too far", then fine. I think even that could be a perilous path, but I can make my peace with it being necessary. I would just hope we stop and ensure everyone is on the same page that we're categorizing these people as something like "activists who went too far" in order to distinguish them from "extremists who carried out attacks that we as a society consider utterly unthinkable and terrifying".
Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow
#255Earlier quoted context omitted.
What does this have to do with fashion? It makes sense to ban single use plastics. What are your suggestions? 15% is leaps and bounds better than what anyone but Jay Inslee has suggested. Anyway that’s goddamn AMAZING for a single country. Also, 12 years is the best case estimate. The worst case is in the past, and I’ve seen good qualified arguments for at most ~4 years before irreversible climate collapse with curre…
The Pareto principle says that reducing CO2 by 80% is doable, but reducing it by 100% will probably destroy us. How much CO2 do you think will be released if we destroy every outdated building and build a new energy efficient one in its place? What’s the payoff time? What’s the cost? The answer I see and hear is often “I don’t care. World is ending. Etc”. This is why I said it strikes me as unserious. I wouldn’t let…
Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow
#256Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow
#257Earlier quoted context omitted.
No need to be punitive. Recognize that there are legitimate and important needs for travel. The generally accepted social cost for a ton of CO2 is about $40. The per passenger emissions are about 3,500 miles per ton.
Generally accepted by whom? We can't currently efficiently and scalably remove CO2 from the atmosphere. Charging based on marginal climate change or marginal removal cost is dumb. It's like MegaCorp charging marginal cost for a widget. Sure, it covers operational costs, but the company has no way to pay back debts for capex and other sunk costs so they go bankrupt. Unless you consider whole-system costs for complete…
The easiest way to calculate the marginal cost of 1 tonne of CO2 is to create a market and find the smallest amount you can pay someone else to reduce their emissions by 1 tonne.
These carbon credits exist, and they generally run for ~$40 per tonne. I presume they work, for example, by paying the premium for fully renewable energy versus non-renewal energy, thus converting some amount of electricity generation which would have been CO2 emitting into non-emitting for someone who is paying the non-renewable rate. They could also be indirectly reducing CO2 emissions by helping to pay for CO2 reducing R&D or other such projects. Or I suppose you could pay someone to extract the CO2 directly, but I would guess that's the least efficient way to spend your dollars presently.
Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow
#258Earlier quoted context omitted.
Such actions are covered by the UK definition of terrorism: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/1
Not sure if OP or anyone else who thought along similar lines will see this follow up, but I was mulling the original comment over some more and I know why I reacted so strongly to it. When I think of the word terrorism, and I'm sure many others think like me, I think of 9/11. Or the Las Vegas shooting. Or one of the many horrible bombings in various parts of Middle East, etc. Those are acts that have no pre-warning,…
Did the Las Vegas shooter have any ideological motivation? I thought he was just a nasty guy with a lot of guns.
Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I disagree with your assessment. I myself am certainly not a lawyer, but the way I interpret that language is for something to be considered an act of terrorism it has to meet a criteria from section [1] AND section [2]. I agree that the planned drone demonstration meets 1c, but I don't think it meets any of the criteria from section 2. Also not a lawyer, but it seems pretty clear to me that flying drones around an…
This is actually the best rebuttal I’ve seen so far, thank you. I still think it’s unfair to compare a drone inside restricted airspace (and notified well ahead of time) to an explosive device in the terminal. But I can certainly see how the two things can be put in the same category by many people.
Imagine someone waiting for a life-saving kidney transplant or whatever. Now you have to get an uber to deliver it.
Re: Drones piloted by climate-change activists target Heathrow
#260Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're being obtuse. The aim of a bomb is to destroy lives and property. The aim of this protest is to stop planes flying, and to do so by flagging what they're going to do weeks in advance. Just the fact that they're talking about a mass of drones might be enough to close Heathrow for the day. The fuss about the recent drone-that-wasn't shows that you may not even need to fly them for this to have an effect, and if…
> You're being obtuse. Please edit personal swipes out of your comments here. Your comment would be just fine and much better without that bit. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html