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SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

nytimes.com

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Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#251

Post by thex10 »

dba7dba wrote: post #238
prvc wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devil's advocate: do you think children who lack families that provide such advantages must necessarily "suffer" as a consequence of that lack? And conversely, why did you wait to object until this, in particular, became a consideration instead of before (when ethnicity and other factors were already considerations)?

> Devil's advocate: do you think children who lack families that provide such advantages must necessarily "suffer" as a consequence of that lack? As for me, of course not. I don't want other kids to suffer. And I'm sure it's the same for everyone else. But why should I or my children who did the right things (study, sacrifice, etc) suffer because some faceless bureaucrats gets to decide who get an advantage via a 'se…

I concede your point about faceless bureaucrats directing people's future, but,

> why should I or my children who did the right things (study, sacrifice, etc) suffer

Because plenty of other families and children do the same right things (study, sacrifice, etc), AND suffer other adversity. You're not special.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#252

Post by [deleted] »

dba7dba wrote: post #238
prvc wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devil's advocate: do you think children who lack families that provide such advantages must necessarily "suffer" as a consequence of that lack? And conversely, why did you wait to object until this, in particular, became a consideration instead of before (when ethnicity and other factors were already considerations)?

> Devil's advocate: do you think children who lack families that provide such advantages must necessarily "suffer" as a consequence of that lack? As for me, of course not. I don't want other kids to suffer. And I'm sure it's the same for everyone else. But why should I or my children who did the right things (study, sacrifice, etc) suffer because some faceless bureaucrats gets to decide who get an advantage via a 'se…

[deleted]

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#253

Post by gay-divorce »

sjy wrote: post #221
remote_phone wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already talked to my wife about this. I would retire, we would divorce, and I would rent a shitty apartment in East Palo Alto all the while living in our house. If they think they can boil my kids into a single number without bothering to find the context of who my kids are then I will game it to as much as possible. I don’t know why my family should be punished because my wife and I worked our asses off to get ahe…

Choosing to get a fake divorce so that you can game the system as much as possible isn't punishment; it's probably fraud. You could also choose to relax and let your children enjoy all the other benefits of a great upbringing, and accept that "the children of hardworking parents should be more likely to be admitted" isn't a design goal of the admissions system.

I mean, what's the difference between being legally separated, getting a divorce on paper and then living common law?

Is an arranged marriage a fraud too? What if you get married for citizenship and then fall in love?

Why aren't gay partners subject to common law divorce precedents?

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#254

Post by lr4444lr »

educationdata wrote: post #179
rhegart wrote: post #131

Equality of opportunity over outcome for me. Now Asians will be discriminated against secretly. My family sacrificing vacations and eating out for 12 years (literally ate out 5x max) to afford to live in a good school district shouldn’t penalize us. My dad commuted 4 hours daily instead of moving...I’m getting pushed further and further to the right.

One thing I have to say about this SAT thing is that, there are lots lots of Asians working in SAT as statisticians, psychometricians, and analysts. There must be lots of Asians working on the project related to the 'Adversity Score', unless they intentionally exclude Asians from this project. But we've never heard anything about internal disagreement or resistant against this stuff. This fact tells something.

That Asians respect the NDAs they signed?

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#255

Post by mythrwy »

rhegart wrote: post #131

Equality of opportunity over outcome for me. Now Asians will be discriminated against secretly. My family sacrificing vacations and eating out for 12 years (literally ate out 5x max) to afford to live in a good school district shouldn’t penalize us. My dad commuted 4 hours daily instead of moving...I’m getting pushed further and further to the right.

I hear what you are saying, but that means you are advantaged. You had parents that cared and sacrificed and took and interest in your future. With that in mind they also probably made sure you studied and did your homework.

To be a bit blunt (and hopefully not offensive, just for example), if someone who didn't have those kind of parents and that type of situation makes the same scores as you, likely they either worked harder or have more ability.

Still I feel where you are coming from. Reverse discrimination for people who work hard is still B.S.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#256

Post by itsaidpens »

rhegart wrote: post #131

Equality of opportunity over outcome for me. Now Asians will be discriminated against secretly. My family sacrificing vacations and eating out for 12 years (literally ate out 5x max) to afford to live in a good school district shouldn’t penalize us. My dad commuted 4 hours daily instead of moving...I’m getting pushed further and further to the right.

Devil's advocate:

I'd argue that you not eating out, getting socialized, and traveling actually made you less of a well-rounded individual and you probably should be penalized for those things. Colleges need diversity. They don't need the same kind of kid replicated 10,000 times. Racquetball, violin, AP calculus does not an interesting campus make.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#257

Post by throwawayjava »

harryh wrote: post #236
shawndrost wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, here's a question for you. You like equality of opportunity. Presumably you agree that the SAT (as-is) does not provide that, in light of (eg) people that can't afford to retake the test and get a higher score. So, here's the question: would you support an "accurate" adversity score? One that, say, was assigned by an all-knowing oracle?

The College Board offers Fee Waivers for disadvantaged test takers.

During grad school I tutored (@ $50-$100/hr).

I could consistently help even the poorest students move from below 50th percentile to 75th percentile. Moving from I think SAT/ACT are pretty good tests [1], but they're horrendously over-gamed at this point. I have very little faith in either as anything other than a demonstration of how badly the student wants to be admitted to a good school and has money for tutoring.

[1] edit: i.e., SAT/ACT are not easy to game wit short-term coaching, but sustained tutoring can substantially increase students' performance... see thread below for further elaboration and discussion of "coaching doesn't help" studies.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#258

Post by verylongname »

781 wrote: post #200
UnpossibleJim wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it even secretly anymore? It just seems outright discrimination, at this point, as far as admissions is concerned.

According to current thinking it's impossible to discriminate against white/east-asian people.

I'm not sure why this is getting downvoted. The United States has a system of de jure discrimination against white and asian men. Moreover, there is a great deal of de facto discretization against them as well. Many people seem to think that it is "fair" and appropriate for this to be the case, but I don't think its debatable that this is the fact of the matter. I think those who support this policy should defend it honestly instead of lying about it and claiming its not the policy, when it plainly is.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#259

Post by jachee »

GhostVII wrote: post #224
jachee wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, then every privileged person who gets in is "hurting" someone of lesser inherent opportunity. They can use that privilege to spread their applications around to increase their opportunities.

Sure, and every non-privileged person who gets in also hurts others who are in the same situation, since they have taken up a spot. The difference is in this case there is an actual policy which is actively punishing people for being in a perceived state of privilege.

Punishing those in privilege is how you achieve equality. They can't give up that inequality voluntarily, and wouldn't if they could.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#260

Post by Sebguer »

GhostVII wrote: post #215

I think instead of trying to lower the bar for low income students, we should work on solving the actual problems causing them to perform more poorly on the SAT (or adjust the SAT so it is more representative of their actual skills). If students are accepted with a lower SAT score because of their background, they are likely going to struggle in University, since they have lower scores than the rest of their class, s…

How do you suggest solving a problem that comes down effectively to 'some people have more money and free time'?

Not everyone can afford high quality tutoring, and high quality tutoring clearly has an impact on test scores.

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