Live data from Hacker News

Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

bloomberg.com

251–260 of 269 posts

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#251
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are silly examples and clearly not what anyone meant in terms of components.

Also there is a kind of redundancy in the wings say by making the internal structure much stronger than generally needed. You can have a fracture in one part without the wings falling off.

There is also much more wing than is strictly needed to keep the plane aloft and stable. They're optimized for low fuel consumption at a design-specified cruising altitude and speed, with variable geometry, so they can still take off and land at lower speeds near ground level.

From a certain perspective, the flaps give the plane redundant wings. One pair for low and slow, and another pair for high and fast.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#252
post #177
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The runaway stabilizer trim procedure is how it was expected to be handled: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/faa-order-tells-h... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pPRuFHR1co The specifics of MCAS weren't out there because Boeing expected the pre-existing procedure to have been sufficient. That procedure wasn't sufficient, or the Lion and Ethiopian Air pilots were somehow not aware of it, or they forgot thei…

somehow the pilots were able to bring the nose back up... it was only (apparently) after multiple nose downs that they eventually failed to recover the plane. What was going on there? The MCAS activated several times, each time ratcheting the stabilizer down by 2.5 degrees. Every time the pilots tried to correct for it, it would engage again. That is what caused the characteristic up/down flight pattern. There are a…

I've read that but it still leaves me confused. Say trim is at 0°. MCAS sets it to nose down pitch of 2.5°. Pilot pulls back yoke. Why doesn't pilot then also look over at the stab indicator, see that it's at 2.5° nose down and reset it with the electric trim switch back to 0°? If the pilot had done that, when MCAS runs again, doesn't it set the stab back to 2.5° nose down? So the pilot and MCAS should be fighting over 2.5° of trim.

What it seems like happened is MCAS ran the stabilizer to 2.5°, but the pilot didn't reset it back to 0, but just back enough he could counter with the elevator. So MCAS keeps cranking the stab each time a bit further nose down and the pilot keeps only partially countering MCAS, instead of running the stab fully back to 0.

The pilot was clearly aware stab trim had something to do with the situation because there were stab adjustments from the pilot. What I can't make sense of is the pilot only partially countering MCAS. I realize the Lion pilots didn't know about MCAS and so their mental model must have been flawed. I'm even more confused about the Ethiopian Air pilots who should have known about MCAS.

edit: also this - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19442160

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#253
post #134
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amusing example, considering the Secretary of Defense has been vacant since January.

Well, Shanahan is acting and will be confirmed when the senate gets around to it... that's kind of the point though. DOD is still running and will continue to run, exactly as it has, with only minor political differences from the top. They have a lot of theoretical power, but little ability to actually change day to day operations of anything.

Oh, sure. I just enjoyed the combination of the example being a bit off, because it sounded like a hypothetical, but also a perfect real-world demonstration of the idea.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#254
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully whatever engineer signed his name to this goes to prison, and gets personally sued by the families of the victims.

Engineers don't make decisions like this. Not providing documentation of the feature or providing training to pilots was the problem, and it's caused by multiple management failures. The lack of sensor redundancy likely also is due to management.

The lack of sensor redundancy HAD to be signed off by a professional engineer. It doesn't matter if management pushed it; it's the engineer's (PE's) responsibility to refuse to sign off on it.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#255
post #249
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully whatever engineer signed his name to this goes to prison, and gets personally sued by the families of the victims.

You seriously think an engineer didn't raise this concern? This reeks of high management telling engineers to know their place.

A PE's job is to refuse to sign off on things that aren't safe.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#256
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess when ordering a plane or a car you assume you don't need to order optional extras to stop the thing killing you.

I mean, some safety features such as automatic emergency braking are available but optional on many cars.

True but this is more like it may steer into a tree if you don't have the optional steering plus package.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#257
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value of having confirmed appointees in those positions is not necessarily their native technical expertise. As you’ve noted, that expertise can be provided by career employees. The value of political appointees is the political clout they carry. Given that they’ve been appointed directly by the President and confirmed by the Senate, it is much harder (or politically fraught) to simply threaten or replace them wh…

Well, that's not what I said. I've not claimed they're unnecessary, just that they have a slightly different and perhaps less important role than the post I replied to was giving them. The undersecretaries can make the same decisions, and in fact the career personnel in the organization have far more ability to take action without fear of replacement by anyone as they have more protection than a secretary who serves…

I can’t find any evidence that the current acting FAA administrator was Senate confirmed. Is the Internet just being unreliable here?

I think your notion that career personnel have as much DC political clout as unconfirmed career officials is one of those things that sounds good if one is trying to win a debate, but is unlikely to represent the actual facts on the ground.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All fly by wire jets have movements based on sensors. In the F-16 a faulty AOA probe is okay. 2x Faulty AOA probes are okay as long as they disagree. 2x faulty AOA probes that agree (frozen) are a very bad thing. But the loss is just a jet with an ejected seat if it can't be fixed, not nearly 200 people which is terribly sad. The worst part is from a previous Hacker News post listed below. In particular, the "Economi…

> No 737MAX with this option has ever crashed. I mean there are only two 737MAXes that have crashed in total, right? It's not like we have such a huge sample to work with for this to carry that much weight.

Would you personally board the plane whose crew didn't have this training option?

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No 737MAX with this option has ever crashed. I mean there are only two 737MAXes that have crashed in total, right? It's not like we have such a huge sample to work with for this to carry that much weight.

Would you personally board the plane whose crew didn't have this training option?

I'm not sure I'd board any 737-MAX's at this point.

Re: Pilot Who Hitched a Ride Saved Lion Air 737 on the Day Before Deadly Crash

#260
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's not what I said. I've not claimed they're unnecessary, just that they have a slightly different and perhaps less important role than the post I replied to was giving them. The undersecretaries can make the same decisions, and in fact the career personnel in the organization have far more ability to take action without fear of replacement by anyone as they have more protection than a secretary who serves…

I can’t find any evidence that the current acting FAA administrator was Senate confirmed. Is the Internet just being unreliable here? I think your notion that career personnel have as much DC political clout as unconfirmed career officials is one of those things that sounds good if one is trying to win a debate, but is unlikely to represent the actual facts on the ground.

Just a quick google search turns up this article that says he has been.

https://www.americanshipper.com/news/?autonumber=67974&sourc...

Political clout in DC isn't what runs organizations and gets the day to day business done. It's what plays well on the hill in pointless back and forth BS sessions that a totally ineffective congress likes to have, it probably helps to some extent in budgeting discussions, but it's more posturing than anything else in a lot of ways.

Anywhere you go in the military you'll find all the GOs who are in charge, and powerful, and senate confirmed, and all that good stuff, and they've got a Chief of Staff and an aide who actually run everything, and can continue to do so if their GO walks in front of a bus. It's no different in any huge bureaucracy -- sure, CEOs make decisions, but the day to day business doesn't stop if they don't answer the phone for a while. I would actually posit that if it did the whole organization is dysfunctional to the point of ineffectivity. But I'm being redundant in describing DC that way perhaps.

Post reply on HN