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Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

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Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#251

Post by sleepysysadmin »

LiquidSky wrote: post #148
sleepysysadmin wrote: post #94

The gender wage gap is real in the sense that there is a gap, but when you analyze it, they are comparing apples to oranges. I'm sure everyone here knows this. https://data.oecd.org/earnwage/gender-wage-gap.htm The countries with the highest wage gaps are the countries with the most equality in the workplace. Women in Korea are not treated poorly. The important thing though is the people proposing that the wage gap i…

>The countries with the highest wage gaps are the countries with the most equality in the workplace. Women in Korea are not treated poorly. I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Korea most assuredly is not a country with "the most equality in the workplace". It routinely ranks as having the worst gender inequality of any developed nation, and one of the worst in the world generally. It came in 115th out of 149…

We have exchanged sources. Thank you.

Your assertion is that Japan and Korea are highly discriminatory against women? That's certainly interesting and I'm not sure I can defend against that position. Perhaps women in japan and korea are extremely oppressed. This is certainly not what I thought after reading for example or just seeing what's portrayed in the media. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_South_Korea

Meanwhile your source has Rwanda as #6 most equal. I'm very confused about what the data is saying. It's certainly feeling more like a checkbox list.

So let's look at Canada. Both my data and your data have them with poor performance. Mind you my data is just looking at wage gap.

Women in Canada for ECONOMIC PARTICIPATION AND OPPORTUNITY is 27th place behind Brunai and Ghana. This seems quite incorrect. Women have completely the same economic opportunity as men in Canada. So this is a debateable number. Women are educated BETTER than men and certainly work. So I'm not sure how this data was determined. The actual number should be showing discrimination against me.

Women in Canada are 1.0 for education. That's good. Like I just said https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/81-004-x/2008001/article... Women outnumber men. So this is actually false information. They capped the number wrongly at 1.0.

Women in Canada for HEALTH AND SURVIVAL aren't in the list? USA is in 71st place. I happen to know this statistic. Women live longer than men. So they cherry picked and removed this data? https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/82-624-x/2011001/article... This another number completely false.

Women in Canada for POLITICAL EMPOWERMENT are 21st place behind india and nambia. Except we live in a democratic society with no barriers. Women can run for politics. So this should be a 1.0.

So I guess in conclusion I find your study to be biased, false, and wrong.

Let me explain to you what's happening. Women have the CHOICE. They choose careers that they get paid less in. This is a good thing. They have the freedom. The gap is not a problem.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#252

Post by WrtCdEvrydy »

edejong wrote: post #217
AdrianB1 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my company in the IT department (over 1000 people) more than 50% are women, reaching around 60%. In the past 5-6 years the promotions were 4 to 1 in favor of women and when hiring, female candidates come first if the skills are comparable or not much lower than male candidates. This is because we used to have a female CIO that set diversity targets that were mandatory for all levels, so in less than 10 years we we…

Makes me wonder how many men left the IT department in order to prevent career-suicide.

Anyone who realized the jig and rolled out.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#253

Post by rdtsc »

Gpetrium wrote: post #236
rdtsc wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The countries with the highest wage gaps are the countries with the most equality in the workplace. Yeah, I am not sure what to think of the data. It's not what I would expect. How is US, Canada, Austria having such a large gender wage gap, followed by Canada. Then Greece, Bulgaria and Romania are all the way on the left. Having lived in Eastern Europe, I would not consider it overall a bastion of women's equality…

I think it is worth noting that the quality of the data can vary a lot from country to country. On average, governments in countries such as Germany and Norway tend to be more critical and transparent of their own actions while others may try to swipe the issue under the rug of inflate numbers when they deem appropriate. Of course, it doesn't mean there are no truths to the data, it just needs to be taken with a grai…

> On average, governments in countries such as Germany and Norway tend to be more critical and transparent of their own actions while others may try to swipe the issue under the rug of inflate numbers when they deem appropriate.

Great point. Yeah I can see that happening.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#254

Post by CydeWeys »

carlosdp wrote: post #196
rafiki6 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just told me that Google is the MLB. I don't see any evidence for this. Many great software companies exist. You are working on the assumption that everyone applying to Google is coming from low-rate companies. Further, if I get hired into the MLB from an AAA team, it's likely I am playing at a professional level. I might get a rookie contract upfront, but that doesn't mean that my skill level is that of a rookie…

I don't think a lot of L4 and higher engineers at Google are very concerned about stack, that's what makes them the "MLB". At a certain point, the tooling shouldn't really be very important, it's the ability for someone to jump in on a problem and use critical thinking and efficient engineering methods to solve it. Say what you will about Google, but I don't think it's a very controversial opinion to say they do hire…

And none of this is particular to Google, either. There's other top-tier employers with similarly high salaries and talent. YOE at these kinds of employers is just not straight-across comparable to other employers, hence the baseball analogy. I know, I've worked at both kinds of companies -- the people at Big N companies are getting paid more for a reason.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#255

Post by sleepysysadmin »

peruvian wrote: post #214
sleepysysadmin wrote: post #94

The gender wage gap is real in the sense that there is a gap, but when you analyze it, they are comparing apples to oranges. I'm sure everyone here knows this. https://data.oecd.org/earnwage/gender-wage-gap.htm The countries with the highest wage gaps are the countries with the most equality in the workplace. Women in Korea are not treated poorly. The important thing though is the people proposing that the wage gap i…

> Women in Korea are not treated poorly. Do you know this for sure? Developed East Asian countries are some of the worst in terms of work equality for women, particularly if they want to have children. Not a good example to use.

I admittedly do not know this. I just replied to another person who provided a source which asserts that Korea is the worst country for equality. Which if true would explain why Korea has a large wage gap.

I'm not defending this at all however. I'm perfectly happy to believe that South Korea is worse than Saudi Arabia toward treatment of women.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#256

Post by emddudley »

sorum wrote: post #202
rhegart wrote: post #154

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. 57% of college graduates are women. Men are not only getting the short end of the stick but are being told by every voice that they are privileged, it’s their fault, they are bad whereas women have sooooo many extra programs and positive reinforcement to succeed. No one with a straight face can tell me women in entry level…

> 57% of college graduates are women What's the percentage female graduates in STEM fields? The 57% may not be representative for the fields which matter for engineers. Not saying the delta is big, I honestly don't know and am curious.

Here is some data from the U.S. National Center for Education Statistics:

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d18/tables/dt18_318.30.a...

In 2017 there were 133,761 Bachelor's degrees conferred in Engineering, 20% of which were conferred to women.

Computers: 71,420 degrees, 19% women

Math: 24,073 degrees, 42% women

Physical sciences: 31,268 degrees, 40% women

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#257

Post by razorunreal »

fasdetwaew wrote: post #223
NotAnEconomist wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible to both discriminate against men, yet have more men in the workforce, if women voluntarily are choosing not to enter a profession. In fact, that seems to be the problem: no amount of discrimination against men resolves that women simply are choosing careers in a different distribution to what men do, but the only policy lever that can really be utilized is discrimination at various stages of education o…

> that women simply are choosing careers in a different distribution to what men do Why is that, though? Are women not encouraged to pursue technology careers? Or are they being encouraged to chose other careers instead? Are they driven away from it by a toxic work place culture? Or just the perception of tech as having toxic workplace cultures? Are women moving into roles with more flexibility because they are expec…

I think you are asking the wrong questions. Why not ask: Why are there so many men in tech?

To answer that I would compare it to a field like finance, where people are well paid and over worked. I think the money comes first, then the men, and with them the bro culture. So my hunch is that men will disproportionately do anything for a dollar. And no-one notices because they are busy wondering where the women are.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#258

Post by manfredo »

adamsea wrote: post #169
rhegart wrote: post #154

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. 57% of college graduates are women. Men are not only getting the short end of the stick but are being told by every voice that they are privileged, it’s their fault, they are bad whereas women have sooooo many extra programs and positive reinforcement to succeed. No one with a straight face can tell me women in entry level…

> No one with a straight face can tell me women in entry level tech programs are not incredibly favored. All my below average coder friends that are women got awesome jobs with high salaries extremely easily. Yes, I talk with them and they agree with what I’m saying. .... and yet, how many workplaces have an engineering team which are 50% female? 25% female? 10% female? 5% female?

How many schools have 50% make teachers? Is it because education has a rampant sexism problem? Or is it because men and women have different preferences?

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#259

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

fasdetwaew wrote: post #223
NotAnEconomist wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible to both discriminate against men, yet have more men in the workforce, if women voluntarily are choosing not to enter a profession. In fact, that seems to be the problem: no amount of discrimination against men resolves that women simply are choosing careers in a different distribution to what men do, but the only policy lever that can really be utilized is discrimination at various stages of education o…

> that women simply are choosing careers in a different distribution to what men do Why is that, though? Are women not encouraged to pursue technology careers? Or are they being encouraged to chose other careers instead? Are they driven away from it by a toxic work place culture? Or just the perception of tech as having toxic workplace cultures? Are women moving into roles with more flexibility because they are expec…

Or... may I dare to suggest they simply don't like it?

I used to work at school. Not for a long time, but enough to make some observations. One of them: school kids are passionate. If they're interested in something, no amount of persuasion, toxicity or whatever else will distract them.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#260

Post by billfruit »

rhegart wrote: post #154

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. 57% of college graduates are women. Men are not only getting the short end of the stick but are being told by every voice that they are privileged, it’s their fault, they are bad whereas women have sooooo many extra programs and positive reinforcement to succeed. No one with a straight face can tell me women in entry level…

I thinks what I see in South Asia, many engineering disciplines have a much more women than men, like CS and Electrical Engineering. It is in disciplines like Mechanical Engineering, Industrial Engineering that there are less women than men. I think in the third world in general more women get engineering degrees than men.q
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