Lies We Tell Kids • Hacker News Board

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#251

Post by randallsquared » Wed, May 14, 2008, 2:00 AM UTC

sofal wrote: post #139

Prrometheus wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>f you think I am totally deluded because of my beliefs, I would ask that you at least show respect for the fact that I am devoted to them and value them sincerely. Belief qua belief does not deserve respect. That is a self-serving myth told by believing people.

How about civility? That's kind of like respect. Do I "deserve" any civility? If it's a myth and a self-serving lie to think that you should show respect for other people's beliefs, count me as one of the self-serving liars.

I think you should show respect for others' beliefs, at least to the extent of not ridiculing them, except when those beliefs are themselves the topic of conversation. In that case, there's really no way to have the discussion without being willing to disagree.

When talking about lies people tell each other, the beliefs are the topic, whether or not you believe they are lies or truths. If you don't want to have other people weigh your beliefs in such a context, I would suggest not mentioning them during such a discussion. There are beliefs I have which I'm sure most don't share, but which I don't feel the need to defend (anymore) at every opportunity. For example, as an atheist, I wouldn't typically go to a Christian forum and announce that God doesn't exist, unless I were prepared to have my views ridiculed.

Please don't take this as meaning I think you shouldn't discuss your beliefs in this thread, but only that I think you shouldn't try to influence others not to debate you honestly by implying they're being uncivil.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#252

Post by randallsquared » Wed, May 14, 2008, 2:03 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #95

brlewis wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"When something is not falsifiable it should be considered false, in most contexts." Is the above sentence falsifiable? How do you examine the "should be" question with science? If it is not falsifiable, should it be considered false, or is it an exception? How do you pick exceptions? My two assertions about your sentence: (1) It is not falsifiable. (2) You consider it very useful.

It is falsifiable if you can find a single non falsifiable thing that would be useful / treated as true.

"Life has meaning."

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#253

Post by iloveyouocean » Wed, May 14, 2008, 2:11 AM UTC

sanj wrote: post #58

byrneseyeview wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think his lack of kids would bias him when observing parents? Isn't this more or less the opposite of what courts argue -- that e.g. a judge who owns Microsoft stock should not be ruling on a Microsoft antitrust case, even if he is the only one who really knows what it would feel like for the shareholders were they walloped with a giant fine?

That's a very interesting point! But it seems like you'd want a judge who had at least been a stockholder, though not one in this particular company. Would either side consider a judge that stored his life savings in his mattress and disagreed with the right of corporations to be valid? The different (and I'll admit I'm on thin ice here) is that kids have a visceral component that is difficult to ignore. If I drop a…

I would rather have a judge that impartially followed the law and was not swayed by his personal life circumstances or beliefs.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#254

Post by seethefnords » Wed, May 14, 2008, 2:14 AM UTC

comatose_kid wrote: post #204

mechanical_fish wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically right. The words are taboo because it's useful to have taboo words, so the culture deliberately makes them so. Taboo words are useful because they transcend politeness. If a normally civil person comes into your dinner party and tells you that the fucking ceiling is about to fall down , you get moving . You don't waste time looking around for the ironic smile. You don't reproach the person for speak…

Interesting. So I wonder if exceptions are the programming language analogue of swearing?

NullFuckingPointerException.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#255

Post by maxwell » Wed, May 14, 2008, 2:19 AM UTC

dr__zeuss wrote: post #241

pg wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it count as a 'lie' if it is believed by the parent? There are senses of the word that include that, but I meant mostly things parents say knowing they're false, or at least that they'd admit were false if questioned.

In that case, I wonder if religion counts as a lie. Lots of religious people either truly believe, or have done a great job of tricking themselves into thinking they believe.

And the alternative: those who've tricked themselves into "not believing," but're still in the same reality tunnel, with the wall furnishings taken down but the same core dogma.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#256

Post by nazgulnarsil » Wed, May 14, 2008, 2:42 AM UTC

very important insight: "most of the rules are just hacks for managing large groups efficiently".

this explains most of the things that conspiracy theorists wail and gnash their teeth about.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#257

Post by wumi » Wed, May 14, 2008, 2:45 AM UTC

aaronsw wrote: post #245

wumi wrote: post #96

"It's obvious now that he was on the list because he was black (and for that matter that Marie Curie was on it because she was a woman), but as a kid I was confused for years about him. I wonder if it wouldn't have been better just to tell us the truth: that there weren't any famous black scientists. Ranking George Washington Carver with Einstein misled us not only about science, but about the obstacles blacks faced…

I suspect a black scientist was included not because of powerful groups but because of guilt on the part of teachers who wanted to appear racially-sensitive. I remember that as a kid, between PBS and the racial sensitivity of my all-white suburban school, I lived in complete terror of doing or saying something that could be seen as racist.

Really? I went to a predominantly white suburbia school, and have plenty of friends who use the term ¨dirty jew¨ as a derogatory comment without second thought. Totally Acceptable.

I don´t know if ya were livin in a utopia, but I imagine racism is higher with people forced to pretend PC.

I still don´t understand why PG is taking his school experiences and painting that brush as what all schools are like, but apparently quite a few here have had the same experiences ...

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#258

Post by RichardPrice » Wed, May 14, 2008, 2:48 AM UTC

"...one of the symptoms of bad judgement is believing you have good judgement."

I thought this was a great quote.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#259

Post by e40 » Wed, May 14, 2008, 4:09 AM UTC

"But if a kid asks you "Is there a God?" or "What's a prostitute?""

I've been asked the first. I said "no", and had a long (> 1hr) conversation with my 6 yr old about the issues.

If I was asked the second, I'd say that's not something you should be thinking about at your young age. Ask me in 5 years.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#260

Post by e40 » Wed, May 14, 2008, 4:12 AM UTC

yawn wrote: post #155

" But why do we conceal death from kids? Probably because small children are particularly horrified by it." One of the hardest things for me answer was the question "Dad, am I going to die?". Even though it is incredibly hard to tell them the truth, I do. The aftermath of saying "yes" to that one really, really sucks no matter how you try to handle it.

At around 5 my son figured out that his mother and I would one day die. He cried off and on for several months, every time he thought or was reminded of it. He was not the sort of boy to cry, either.

It was during that period of my son's life that I actually felt my mortality like a weight on my shoulders. I am definitely more keenly aware of my health and the importance of staying healthy.