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Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

nytimes.com

251–260 of 789 posts

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you ban her from Instagram? https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/27/middleeast/kuwait-philippines... I can assure you the life of domestic indentured servants in the Khaleej is much worse than that of blacks in america today.

> Would you ban her from Instagram? Honestly I don't find free speech to be an interesting topic, so I'm not interested in continuing this. I just wanted to point out that it's possible to be so charitable that you say something naive.

I don’t think he was naive in saying what he said and neither do I think he was being charitable to blacks or to whites for that matter.

Maybe the simplest thing is to let profit motivated corporations do whatever it takes to increase their revenues, and leave the moralities out of the door. If they want to deny service to people because of their speech in the pursuit of growing their business, why not?

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#253

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

> Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened policies that aren't selectively enforced, I think it becomes worrisome.

This is a mistake; but don't worry, it's a common mistake. The mistake is to assume that human-constructed ontologies are actually capable of describing the real world, and thus that we can come up with laws or rules that CAN be assiduously (and not selectively) enforced.

This is simply wrong; laws are human constructions made up of language, an imperfect instrument that has no power by itself. There is NO WAY to apply laws without interpretation by the enforcer. It is up to some set of people we designate as agents of the law to decide what the application is.

The same is true of any rule-based system, legal or extra-legal. The rule set by itself can only provide a guide; it requires human judgement to make the rule set work in a particular scenario. Cf. Potter Stewart's famous pronouncement about obscenity: >I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that.

Since it requires judgement to apply the abstract rule to the particular situation, it means enforcement, by its very nature, must be "selective", and there must always be an arbitrary element to it. That is, judgement, being produced by individuals with their own biases and history which they must necessarily bring to bear on the question, is always questionable.

We have mechanisms to mitigate this problem - mostly precedent and review, i.e., amortizing the problem of individual judgement over several individuals to smooth out the bumps, and recall - the ability to reject individual enforcers. But again, these mechanisms are imperfect (who watches the watchmen, and what makes those watchers any more credible, by the way?).

What's my fucking point? It's that when we begin on this quest, we should recognize our fundamental limit: we CANNOT produce an ideal solution, we are limited by metaphysics itself (the world is larger than we have words to describe). It behooves us to see, then, that the solutions we DO arrive at must be full of compromise, and must recognize all of the ways in which our system is subject to failure.

Your post, then, is a good step along this way. If what we are doing becomes worrisome, good - that worry is a check on whatever authority we have put in place, and your subjective judgements being brought to bear are a way to control the arbitrariness of authority.

But, at the end of the day, all we can really do is worry harder, speak louder, and shape and reshape our institutions, constantly trying to get them to fit the - ever-shifting - landscape of our morality.

See also: Richard Rorty, who was very fond of observing that human society is made up of ugly half-compromises.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#254
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The government, soapboxes, homes and places of business that are happy to have them. Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. If people don't like what you have to say, or how you are saying it, they are free to walk away. If you don't like what someone is doing in your place of business, you can also throw…

The question is; where does it end? Sure, I guess you could say Patreon has the right to ban people from its service. But people have found its not easy or practical to compete with them. They've found everyone from their domain registrar to their website host to their payment processor refusing to do business with them. And at some point, that means it becomes virtually impossible to express yourself if your views a…

> And at some point, that means it becomes virtually impossible to express yourself if your views are unpopular enough.

This is how free speech has always worked, though. You could always get on a soapbox in a public plaza and rant, but the potential engaged audience there is pretty small.

If you wanted a real audience, even in older times you would've needed a newspaper to print your thoughts, or a publisher to help with your books.

"Few people will be listening to highly unpopular messages" hardly seems like something to get in a tiff over, if it's just the result of the free market of ideas.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know anything about this particular case, but it is certainly possible to be a Nazi while claiming to be anti-Nazi.

I can't speak to what's really in the guy's head, but he seemed to be arguing with and insulting nazis.

Yes, I won’t make any claim whether or not this guy is a Nazi. I have no idea.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#256

"And while many internet creators argue that Silicon Valley is trying to censor free speech, what the companies are doing is legal, said Vera Eidelman, staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union’s speech, privacy and technology project. “The First Amendment right is on the side of the company,” she said." I think that sums up the matter. If people want to raise funds from their supporters, they should dis…

Checks themselves require the banks to act as intermediates. I don't know if banks would be allowed to deplatform someone in the same manner as patreon.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#257
post #242

> Why are we giving companies and people the right to silence vast amounts of voices and opinions on random whims? This is not a new situation. But all of a sudden it’s a problem because it’s conservative white guys instead of women, LGBTQ people and people of color?

What older situations are you talking about?

A good start:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_Stat...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_States

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#258
post #69

The article avoids the specifics of what Benjamin said, which makes it hard to judge whether Patreon is acting reasonably. The interview in question is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ87Wf-0rZg . Here are some excerpts from the automatically generated transcript (click the 3 dots, then "Open transcript"): I just can't be bothered to deal with people who treat me like this it's really annoying like I you are a…

He used slurs, that's for certain. But it's critical to point out that the context in which they were used was to tell the Alt Right that they're behaving exactly like they see the groups they despise (blacks, Jewish people, gays etc.) through their bigoted worldview. Not to mention, your excerpt cuts off a crucial part of what he said. As other commenters pointed out, the whole part of this was:

> It's not about, like, actually doing any good, it's about getting attention. And I see, like, 'kikes are ruining everything'. [laughs] Good—good—good job. Should tackle field [I can't understand this sentence]. You're making your movement look like you're not full of Nazis! Great! Bravo!"

In case the context isn't clear, saying that they "look like you're not full of Nazi" is sarcasm. Of course subscription to belief in a global Jewish conspiracy makes a group look like they're full of Nazis.

It is difficult to claim that these statements were meant as an attack on blacks and Jewish people themselves. It's pretty obvious that this banning was carried out for ideological reasons. In the past, Jack Conte stated that Patreon would only ban people for speech that was spread on their platform.[1] This was flat out ignored. It looks like much of their userbase is calling them out on the questionable justifications for the banning, too.[2]

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofpbDgCj9rw

2. See comments on https://patreonhq.com/hate-speech-on-patreon-a9026e52c2cf

Edit: changed "they're behaving exactly like the groups they despise" to "they're behaving exactly like they see the groups they despise through their bigoted worldview". Crucial mis-wording on my part, as the original version made it look I was saying said groups really do behave like how the alt-right claims.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These individuals are free to create their own businesses and websites which facilitate whatever kind of discourse they please, nobody can take that away from them That's very clearly not true at all. Just a dozen or so major companies or orgs can work together to shut you out of having nearly any reach at all. For practical purposes, you'll have zero reach. Any combined small group of them can easily be enough to…

Just a dozen or so major companies or orgs can work together to shut you out of having nearly any reach at all. Yep. And it's happened in the past. That's why so many tinfoil hat types ended up on shortwave radio, or sticking flyers to lampposts. Desperate people desperately trying to get a message out, with no means to do so.

But the line cannot become "tinfoil hat types" because that is a completely undefinable measure. People who correctly predicted the 2008 financial crisis were considered "tinfoil hat types". Should they have been dropped off these platforms because they sounded crazy at the time?

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But now you're changing the argument: that not only must you have free speech, but that others must assist you in getting compensated for your speech and to help you potentially subsist off of it. That's never been part of any conversation about free speech. (Even the broader non 1st amendment version). And it doesn't make sense. You can always take cash or check. The post office doesn't discriminate.

Surely there's a good argument for non-discriminatory digital payments too, given how much of an advantage easier payments confers.

I mean, bitcoin is a thing.
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