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Apple deprecates Java

developer.apple.com

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Re: Apple deprecates Java

#251

Post by dannyo152 »

alanh wrote: post #163

Given that they are deprecating their own Java runtime and that the major differentiation of said runtime from others is the much better approximation of the Mac UI in Java apps, and given that this deprecation is coming ~9 months ahead of OS X 10.7 Lion, I’m going to guess they are finally freshening up the OS X look & feel and don’t want to spend time keeping their JVM in lockstep.

That seems a reasonable guess. Also, java has been showing up with a lot of vulnerabilities, so the beancounters may have wondered about the costs of doing qa on implementing those. We know that it is months before we get major new versions of java or some of the security fixes. Also java 7 is on the horizon and the dance would start over again.

There's an opportunity here that Apple should encourage. I write in-house apps in java on the Mac for deployment for my Windows colleagues. They are not going to stop using Windows. Java has real good libraries for rdbms access.

I guess the options are java develop in a vm hosting Linux or hello -ugh- mono. But I hope someone gives us a good java that runs natively.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#252

Post by ryanpetrich »

Samuel_Michon wrote: post #111
masklinn wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. It makes it sound like if that's ever a bother, they'll drop it. But right now, they probably have the deployment architecture so no reason to ever remove it. On the other hand, don't hold your breath for an OpenJDK release from Apple. In fact, that's very likely the purpose of the move: they're warning developers they will not port Java 7.

" It makes it sound like if that's ever a bother, they'll drop it. " Right, it's the same ambiguous phrasing that Apple uses to let iOS jailbreakers know that Apple isn't going to go out of its way to support them. If a future update breaks a jailbroken installation: too bad. Which isn't to say that Apple will actively work on making jailbreaking impossible.

Except they are actively working to make iOS jailbreaking impossible.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#253

Post by WaltFrench »

rryyan wrote: post #137
msy wrote: post #28

I wonder if putting the boot into the most straightforward cross-platform solution for desktop apps has anything to do with the proliferation of OSX Java apps with shoddy/un-maclike UX/UI or whether it's something to do with Oracle's recent moves.

Jobs and Ellison are buddies -- I would find it surprising if Oracle went after Apple over some Java legal issue. My bet is on shoddy UI, plus the time invested vs. payoff balance.

I have found this thread blissfully flamewar free regards business motivations. That said, I think this first mention of business issues is both overdue and needing expansion.

How can one look at the deprecation of a particular runtime in isolation from (a) Apple's simultaneous announcement of increasing commonality of iOS and OSX, and (b) Oracle's aggressive enforcement of comm-related java libraries?

Since Apple sells and approves all app-store products, they bear plausible liability for an iOS app, if Oracle was lawsuit-minded. I would hardly be surprised to learn that Oracle will NOT sue Apple over runtimes that could trip up Google, thanks to Apple's agreement to remove possibly-offending code.

Or, alternatively, if you have an iOS app that wants to do comm in java, how could Apple field an alternative library to one that Oracle claims is theirs?

This makes Apple-supplied java runtimes a dead end. We'll see how interested Oracle is in licensing alternatives.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#254

Post by BenSS »

rryyan wrote: post #137
msy wrote: post #28

I wonder if putting the boot into the most straightforward cross-platform solution for desktop apps has anything to do with the proliferation of OSX Java apps with shoddy/un-maclike UX/UI or whether it's something to do with Oracle's recent moves.

Jobs and Ellison are buddies -- I would find it surprising if Oracle went after Apple over some Java legal issue. My bet is on shoddy UI, plus the time invested vs. payoff balance.

I think it's more that now Ellison owns Java/Sun, he wants control. Jobs was happy to hand over the resource-suck since he sees the future as iOS apps and appstore anyway.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#255

Post by stcredzero »

rbanffy wrote: post #243
stcredzero wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making your software hard to interface with is making it less open. It's the same sort of move as making your word processor use an incompletely documented binary format.

> Making your software hard to interface with is making it less open We are using two different definitions of "open". Back in the 80's Unix was considered "open" because you could compile a program for various flavors and the various flavors could share data on the same network (contrary to other platforms of the time). GCC is open not because it runs on many platforms, but because you can freely inspect, change it…

These are both important. Sometimes the letter of the law is convenient. Needing to resort to the letter of the law is not "open" -- a 3rd meaning!

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#256

Post by pvaibhav »

_delirium wrote: post #226
acdha wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What end-user Java applications are there for OS X? The only one which comes to mind is Crashplan but I'm sure it's lurking around in other places.

Do IDEs count? A lot of Mac users use Eclipse. It's not common among all-Mac teams that just do XCode, but it's fairly common for devs in groups that mostly do PC development to own Macbooks that they run Eclipse on. Probably not a big concern for Apple, but it's common in universities, too, since Eclipse is (until now, at least) cross-platform enough that you can assume Windows/Mac/Linux-using students can all insta…

As an Android developer using Eclipse on a mac, this news majorly sucks. I hope the offering from Oracle will be better than Apple's JVM though.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#257

Post by pvaibhav »

WaltFrench wrote: post #253
rryyan wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs and Ellison are buddies -- I would find it surprising if Oracle went after Apple over some Java legal issue. My bet is on shoddy UI, plus the time invested vs. payoff balance.

I have found this thread blissfully flamewar free regards business motivations. That said, I think this first mention of business issues is both overdue and needing expansion. How can one look at the deprecation of a particular runtime in isolation from (a) Apple's simultaneous announcement of increasing commonality of iOS and OSX, and (b) Oracle's aggressive enforcement of comm-related java libraries? Since Apple se…

> I would hardly be surprised to learn that Oracle will NOT sue Apple over runtimes that could trip up Google

I think the difference is that Apple licenses/d Java and bundles a standard VM and framework, while Google did not do so - they just used the language with their own VM and framework distinctly different from, say, J2ME.

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#259

Post by vflo »

stcredzero wrote: post #230
_delirium wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes some sense if you view it from the perspective of users rather than developers. The FSF comes from the perspective of being interested in what rights/freedoms end users have to modify software they receive, which takes precedence over other concerns. So basically anything that would make it easier for developers to ship stuff that end users aren't allowed to hack is bad.

So basically anything that would make it easier for developers to ship stuff that end users aren't allowed to hack is bad. But if end users are hacking stuff, then they are also developers. Replace "end users" with "developers" and it gets interesting: "So basically anything that would make it easier for developers to ship stuff that developers aren't allowed to hack is bad." So making it hard to hack X for people tr…

Weird but plausible...

Re: Apple deprecates Java

#260

Post by jonhendry »

acdha wrote: post #185
grav1tas wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think stuff like this isn't really that bad for devs who use the platform. Devs (should) have the ability to pull down the replacement in this situation when the time comes. It's going to be harder on the end user that no longer gets why his/her Java application no longer works right.

What end-user Java applications are there for OS X? The only one which comes to mind is Crashplan but I'm sure it's lurking around in other places.

Encyclopedia Britannica.
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