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Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

euractiv.com

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Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#251

Post by petermonsson »

Annatar wrote: post #77

Good luck with that, especially with banning ultramodern, low emission, high performance diesel cars. I was in Denmark last year to see what's going on over there and I observed the infrastructure very carefully: there is no widespread electric infrastructure for cars; it will be a gargantuan investment of epic proportions. Even if the infrastructure is put in, the current battery technology is only barely adequate f…

I’m a Dane, I have leased a 24kwh BEV a few years ago. The charging infrastructure is fine and it is getting better. Denmark is not that big. I had a 30km commute each way. I live in an apartment, so that means public charging, which was no problem. I got 99 km at 110km/h on a full charge which means a 60 kwh battery will take me between the two furthest points in Denmark on two quick charges.

The only parts that sucks about BEVs is that you can’t have a trailer attached and the price.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#252

Post by IB885588 »

zepearl wrote: post #230
IB885588 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at page 29 of this LCA by Audi, you can see that they show an ICE car's impact at about 20% manufacturing, 80% usage, and around 1% recycling at the end of life: https://www.audi.com/content/dam/com/EN/corporate-responsibi...

Mmmhh, Audi is Volkswagen (and Audi's cars were involved as well in the emissions scandal), so I'm kind of sceptic about their credibility (meaning "let's not forget too quickly"). As they have as well a direct interest in saying "buying new/our cars isn't that harmful as you think", their doc makes me even more sceptic... :)

There are many other LCA studies, go find them. They all say similar things, and it makes sense when you think about how many gallons of gasoline or diesel a car can burn over its useful life (15-20 years).

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#253

Post by outworlder »

floatrock wrote: post #92
mrguyorama wrote: post #73

As an idealist I'm glad to see the world transition away from fossil fuels in any capacity. As a "Car Guy" however, there is a small sadness that I won't really get to experience much of the internal combustion engine. I feel like I was born a decade too late and a lot too poor. Similar to some techies who feel the missed the early internet.

Why the sadness? As a "Car Guy" I'm thrilled about electric! Instant torque and acceleration, way more responsive than ICE. Just the other month there was the story where an electric shattered all the previous Pikes Peak records: https://www.teslarati.com/vw-id-r-electric-vehicle-pikes-pea... I mean, yeah, it doesn't have the same growl, but if you want raw performance, I'll take my spaceship whirl over rube goldberg…

Oh yeah, the growl. The constant reminder that your gas is being spent to generate sound waves, not to propel the car.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#255

Post by petermonsson »

snambi wrote: post #235

denmark is the size of bayarea. Yes, they can move to electric cars, because a tesla will NOT run out of battery by travelling all over the country. OTOH, do they even need cars? Why can't denmark just use public transportation and abolish cars altogether?

Rural areas are neither economical nor convenient for public transportation.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#256

Post by outworlder »

Annatar wrote: post #77

Good luck with that, especially with banning ultramodern, low emission, high performance diesel cars. I was in Denmark last year to see what's going on over there and I observed the infrastructure very carefully: there is no widespread electric infrastructure for cars; it will be a gargantuan investment of epic proportions. Even if the infrastructure is put in, the current battery technology is only barely adequate f…

> Even if the infrastructure is put in, the current battery technology is only barely adequate for daily city driving.

Barely adequate? We are reaching almost 500km on a charge now (around 300km is more common). This is Denmark we are talking about, not Russia.

> and it's especially banking on invention of fast recharging

You mean under 30 minutes? How often do you need that? Road trips?

Note that they are not banning hybrids, which will take care of your road trip needs just fine.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#257

Post by netcan »

NickM wrote: post #84
netcan wrote: post #65

At the start, I thought these announcements and laws (eg Scotland) to ban ICE vehicles by 20XX were cheap politics. A promise Someone Else will deliver later, with credit due to you now. I've come around though. I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. The idea of a neutral, "market decides" policy is a myth. These things are complex, and that compmexity is an op…

I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. I'm curious, do you think the whole idea of a market-based solution is bad, or do you just think that actual real-world implementations have been lacking so far? I mean, it seems to me that if you tax emissions strongly and uniformly enough, then at some point it has to have an impact. I think existing schemes have just be…

I don't think the whole idea is bad. Market based public housing schemes can be quite good, for example.

I do think that making stuff more market based to avoid "picking winners" is probably a bad idea. We know what the winner is here, more or less. The winner is non-ICE vehicles. We should be backing that, not 25% more efficient engines.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#258

Post by thelaith5 »

xxs wrote: post #175
DerJacques wrote: post #2

While the promise sounds great, it's important to note that no law has actually been passed. Also, incentives to increase sales of electric vehicles are yet to be announced. Denmark's Scandinavian neighbour Norway is on the other side of the spectrum. Heavy subsidisation has caused every 2nd (!) car sold to be electric ( https://www.reuters.com/article/us-environment-norway-autos/... ).

Isn't it ironic that most of welfare and subsidies actually come from the oil. Stuff like 25km of under sea tunnel leading to a town with sub 2k population is quite a common sight there. While Norway is an amazing country in many aspects, the amount of oil owned by a state company puts it in a rather unique position.

This is a great article explaining how an Iraqi was largely the mind behind putting all the oil money in a state-owned fund as to avoid the damage that oil usually had done to any country that had discovered it.

https://www.ft.com/content/99680a04-92a0-11de-b63b-00144feab...

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#259

Post by wongarsu »

tom_ wrote: post #220
atombender wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP is using US gallons, though.

Are you sure? There are cars that are that efficient, but as an average ? In real life?

The average European car is very different from the average US car. The most sold cars in the US are the Ford F series, in the EU it's the VW Golf and similar hatchbacks.

There are a lot of forces at play here, among others tax rates (which cause the F150 to get bigger and European cars to get lighter), fuel prices, culture (in Europe a big truck won't impress anyone, you get other types of cars for that), average and maximum distance traveled (in Europe nobody fantasizes about roadtrips), road conditions (high population density makes offroad driving less important in rural Europe than in rural America), etc

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#260

Post by wongarsu »

simias wrote: post #144
abakker wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this policy would ban new sales, not outright ban all old cars.

Both policies exist actually. For instance old cars and motorcycles are getting banned in Paris (outside of weekends IIRC). Even if as the grandparent points out making a new car generates a lot of pollution at least it would reduce the more local problem of having a heavy smog on windless days (and all the health issues that go along with it).

Banning old cars from inner-city driving is a nessesity. With how densly cities pack both cars and buildings, suspended particulate matter is a serious public health risk. But we can still allow them everywhere else where we aren't already struggling with keeping particluate levels at a reasonably safe level.
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