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If You're Not Writing a Program, Don't Use a Programming Language [video]

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Re: If You're Not Writing a Program, Don't Use a Programming Language [video]

#251
post #248
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will be, we just need a couple more lawsuits about faulty software and security exploits.

How long has this sort of stuff been said though?

Not long enough, but IoT mass deployments are going to change that, as they are much worse than Windows 9X security issues.

Re: If You're Not Writing a Program, Don't Use a Programming Language [video]

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I haven't fully learned Rust yet but from what I understand, the borrow checker only applies to mutable data This is not correct. The borrow checker applies to references , both mutable and immutable.

I think the intention was that if you have no mut refs, then you have no borrow checker problems.

That’s not true. You still have things like dangling pointers being checked for.

Re: If You're Not Writing a Program, Don't Use a Programming Language [video]

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. People obsess about the choice of programming language, insisting that months of study are needed to choose. I just don't see it except for very specialized tools or applications. That said, I find maintaining an old, large application written in an untyped language pretty miserable.

I've had equal misery both typed and untyped on large, old, legacy stuff. Maybe programming just sucks.

At least you don't have to read the method to figure out the input and output types. And the IDE can help you much more. I find these things big when trying to modify some massive codebase I don't know inside and out.

Re: If You're Not Writing a Program, Don't Use a Programming Language [video]

#254
post #237
post #116

I'm more with Mike Acton in this respect; the hardware is the platform, not the software. And in that sense... In order to really make good use of your hardware you need to understand your hardware and code accordingly. I doubt you can achieve great performance on a language that focuses entirely on mathematical representations without considering the hardware. So yeah... you end up with a beautiful mathematical expr…

You can do both.. But it is hard.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt0OQb1DBko

Interesting! Thanks for sharing :) ATS seems to be a little bit far from Lamport because you do have data types and other stuff, but yeah.. maybe this is as close as you can get.

Re: If You're Not Writing a Program, Don't Use a Programming Language [video]

#255

I wasn't exposed to spreadsheets until a few years into college back around 1996 or 1997 maybe (I had been programming in C/C++ for 7 or 8 years by then). I wasn't taught matrix math until pretty late in the curriculum, I want to say junior or senior year. Also I was lucky to have a semester of Scheme but they were transitioning to teaching Java around the time I graduated (I don't know if they ever switched back). A…

I disagree that they should phase out imperative / OO programming, but from my experience more emphasis on different languages i.e. throw in a ML (as in Meta Language) and a Lisp, and most importantly some information about the trade offs. However it would require a culture shift as a university being a place to get you ready for a career in industry rather than academia. Because you are prepping for academia it is O…

> Code reviewers are working at the deckchairs level, they are unable to change the Titanic's direction, and again both parties in a code review have incentive to do it as quick as possible (while not looking like they obviously brushed over it), so it become mostly a potential bug hunting and syntactic cleanup exercise.

And that's why I despise code reviews. There's obviously not enough time allocated to them for in-depth understanding of the reviewed code, so I'm mostly spending precious resources (attention, energy) on doing a half-assed review that is not going to do that much good. It feels like such futile work.

Re: If You're Not Writing a Program, Don't Use a Programming Language [video]

#256
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that tools such as TLA+ show their value not by convincing people that they're worth the extra effort but that they actually save you effort. The experience at Amazon and Microsoft shows exactly that, and managers were relatively easily convinced.

Absolutely agree. I work in the autonomous vehicle space, specifically in creating high-assurance resilient systems, and I've had more arguments that I care to count which went something like the following: Them, "All that extra effort sounds great, but we don't have the time to do that. It will explode the really tight build, test, debug cycle we have now. Suddenly every cycle will be 100x as long." Me, "First of al…

> It's become more important to produce the appearance of progress and effort than it is to actually make progress and thoughtfully apply effort.

That's why I'm sceptical about going to work on the autonomous vehicles tech (although it is tempting). I'm affraid there's been so much money and hype around it that "failure is not an option" - i.e. companies will sooner see another Challenger disaster than admit that they're not on track for their announced goals.

Re: If You're Not Writing a Program, Don't Use a Programming Language [video]

#257

I wasn't exposed to spreadsheets until a few years into college back around 1996 or 1997 maybe (I had been programming in C/C++ for 7 or 8 years by then). I wasn't taught matrix math until pretty late in the curriculum, I want to say junior or senior year. Also I was lucky to have a semester of Scheme but they were transitioning to teaching Java around the time I graduated (I don't know if they ever switched back). A…

>Honestly I think it might be time to phase out teaching imperative and object-oriented programming. I have seen plenty of universities teach Java and C++, haven't seen any that teach actual OOP. James Coplien aptly calls the current paradigm "class oriented programming".

This thought is why for a long time, Programming 101 at my alma mater (ETH Zurich) was taught in Eiffel. Obscure, but strongly opinionated towards OOP by way of strongly enforcing the paradigm.

Stop reading here.

(Since Bertrand Meyer, driving force behind the language and course, retired, the course is now taught using Java.)

Re: If You're Not Writing a Program, Don't Use a Programming Language [video]

#258
post #251
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long has this sort of stuff been said though?

Not long enough, but IoT mass deployments are going to change that, as they are much worse than Windows 9X security issues.

I'm not sure that we'll end up with more formal proofs as a result of this. But better locked down systems would be a good thing in this space.

Re: If You're Not Writing a Program, Don't Use a Programming Language [video]

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's quite likely that during their lifetime, machine learning will completely change the nature of programming." - Why is this the case? Even if it's true, it hardly seems obviously true.

Because soon you will just ask your computer to build your code after giving it a few parameters. Then you will proof read and sanity check the code and spend more time optimizing and working on the really hard problems.

That is already how you program Prolog, no proof reading or machine learning required. I also think that specifying the problem is one of the harder aspects of software development.

On the contrary, I think machine learning might be more immediately useful for things like low-level optimization.

Re: If You're Not Writing a Program, Don't Use a Programming Language [video]

#260
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely agree. I work in the autonomous vehicle space, specifically in creating high-assurance resilient systems, and I've had more arguments that I care to count which went something like the following: Them, "All that extra effort sounds great, but we don't have the time to do that. It will explode the really tight build, test, debug cycle we have now. Suddenly every cycle will be 100x as long." Me, "First of al…

> It's become more important to produce the appearance of progress and effort than it is to actually make progress and thoughtfully apply effort. That's why I'm sceptical about going to work on the autonomous vehicles tech (although it is tempting). I'm affraid there's been so much money and hype around it that "failure is not an option" - i.e. companies will sooner see another Challenger disaster than admit that the…

Based on your handle and your concerns, you should email me. :-)
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