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The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

nytimes.com

251–260 of 374 posts

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#251

It's a damn shame we've let this crisis reach this scale. Along with healthcare, climate change, the debt, our inauguration, and so on, we've been essentially frozen for most of my life as politicians concern themselves more so with existential power struggle. The right wants to bring us back to the gilded age, the left makes headlines but is barely relevant, and the center is trying to squeeze bandaid solutions whil…

Just let students default. The problem would be solved in a week. Poor investments should get poor returns. You should be able to default on any loan out of human dignity.

> Just let students default.

It's not that easy. What's to stop everyone from defaulting?

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just let students default. The problem would be solved in a week. Poor investments should get poor returns. You should be able to default on any loan out of human dignity.

> Just let students default. It's not that easy. What's to stop everyone from defaulting?

Good question. EG Why doesn’t everyone default on a loan? This is asking “how do loans work”.

Typically, a loan with interest is a gamble. You want to get your money back with a return. If you loan money you want to ensure you will get your money back by qualifying the applicant. There is a risk though because they might not pay it back, thus you increase the interest rate according to how qualified the loan is. Good investors really focus on getting a qualified applicant (one that can pay it back). Sometimes they don't get their money back and they are forced to write it off - it is apart of the loan business.

Basically, I am not trying to be insulting but I will end up explaining how a loan works - so I will stop there.

With college loans ALL basic loan concepts are wrong. You cannot default on a college loan by law. It follows you through marriage, bankruptcy, or even service in Afghanistan. The people which made these poor loans know they made poor loans backed by the US government. Thus, they have lobbyists pushing congress to ensure student loans are 'unforgivable'. SO! Investing in a student loan is a damn good deal. You have 0 chance of someone defaulting because it is illegal to default. The loan has zero risk. This is why tuition has exploded and why we have a crisis.

So, if you want to major in 18th century French Dance at Yale for 190k - there isn't an investor willing to stop you.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#253

There really needs to be some “free market” ideology injected into the way loans are dispersed. First of all students need a way to declare bankruptcy. Second, we must take into consideration future earnings potential when deciding how much and at what rate.

Permitting bankruptcy would instantly add more risk to the lender and thus instantly boost the interest rate on the loan, potentially pricing it out of the range of the student.

If any given thing is "too expensive", then an important fact is being conveyed: that thing takes too many resources to produce, relative to the value it is providing.

Trying to hide or subsidize the price only prevents people from acting on that fact. (and thereby acquiring that value in a more efficient manner, etc.)

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a strange sentiment to me. You would never hire an amateur Carpenter to work on your house. You would never hire an amateur DBA to build your company's key data architecture. But you want the people who run the country to be amateurs?

Yes. Athens picked their Senators by lot, and we probably should consider it.

I consider it foolhardy. Can you imagine our most important foreign and domestic policy being set by people who center their lives both moral and emotional around 'Keeping up with the Kardashians'? Or getting a bunch of antivaxxers in there?

There are plenty of decent Americans but we also have too many that are juvenile, superficial, ignorant and aggressively incurious.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#256
post #64

"...averaging $22,000 in debt by graduation" That is not very much money. That's a modest new car or a down payment on a small home in a cheap zip code. At low enough interest rates, that monthly bill will be less than most people's cell phone or cable bill. I think that's a reasonable price for something as unique and transformative as a college experience. There is obviously a serious problem here, but not necessar…

That is not very much money. That's a modest new car or a down payment on a small home in a cheap zip code.

Sure, as long as people are making a livable, sustainable wage. I know quite a few people who did not manage to rise significantly above minimum wage work coming out of college, it would be interesting to see how that lines up with the amount of debt they came out with.

I think that's a reasonable price for something as unique and transformative as a college experience.

This points to what may be part of a more fundamental issue with the whole higher-education/college arrangement in the USA.

I think that most people are going to be having unique and transformative experiences that help them define who they are and how they see themselves in the world in their late teens through mid-twenties regardless of whether they're in college or not. I doubt that being at college contributes nothing to the experience of coming out of adolescence and into the world at large, but is it adding 5 digits of value? For a lot of folk who viewed college as a necessary stepping stone into adulthood I don't think it has been, regardless of the amount of debt they took on.

In some way, to me, talking about how it's both reasonable for people to take on dozens of thousands of dollars of debt, and how it's really not much of a problem for those with fewer dozens feels off. Especially when a large portion of these people feel like it's compulsory, won't see any benefit for years, and probably don't have much experience assessing investment risks. I certainly didn't have the life experience to evaluate a 20,000 dollar investment with a waiting period of multiple years before seeing any returns when I was 19.

Colleges (and debtors) get to point at people who don't default and attribute their well-being to having attended college, and blame the individual when their situation doesn't work out quite so well, or when it doesn't work out at all.

If the purpose of the institution, and hence the debt, is to create good functioning society members while educating them towards a field, maybe someone other than the student should share some responsibility for delivering good functioning society members. I wouldn't pay someone to build me a house they knew I'd love in 4 years time unless I was pretty confident they'd be able to deliver. If I told someone out of high school that if they didn't get someone like me to build them a future house they'd be homeless, I'd be exploiting naive youth. I'm offered warranties for lots of products, it'd be great if they were offered for college degrees.

If the purpose is to provide an arena for early adulthood fine, be that. Maybe we need it. I'd still argue that early adulthood is going to be it's own arena for everyone regardless of the institutions or customs in place.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#257

It's a damn shame we've let this crisis reach this scale. Along with healthcare, climate change, the debt, our inauguration, and so on, we've been essentially frozen for most of my life as politicians concern themselves more so with existential power struggle. The right wants to bring us back to the gilded age, the left makes headlines but is barely relevant, and the center is trying to squeeze bandaid solutions whil…

It's time for a debt jubilee.

So people who do everything right and delayed purchasing a house/etc to pay student loans just get screwed? If I can make my loan payments, they can too.

Student loan forgiveness is a solution that only helps a narrow slice of those affected by the student loan problem. It's not something that just affects those making payments, it affects literally everyone who ever had a loan.

Jubilees are only going to decrease repayment rates (why would I pay if it's going to be forgiven next year) and drive up costs further (the government is paying, so why not renovate the athletic center?).

The first step needs to be getting college costs under control, I'm not sure there needs to be another step. If you took out $100k in loans to pursue a degree in the arts, well, that's your problem.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#258

It's a damn shame we've let this crisis reach this scale. Along with healthcare, climate change, the debt, our inauguration, and so on, we've been essentially frozen for most of my life as politicians concern themselves more so with existential power struggle. The right wants to bring us back to the gilded age, the left makes headlines but is barely relevant, and the center is trying to squeeze bandaid solutions whil…

Just let students default. The problem would be solved in a week. Poor investments should get poor returns. You should be able to default on any loan out of human dignity.

> The problem would be solved in a week.

Solved in what way though? The end solution state might be one where loans are less available, further entrenching generational income inequality.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#259
post #64

"...averaging $22,000 in debt by graduation" That is not very much money. That's a modest new car or a down payment on a small home in a cheap zip code. At low enough interest rates, that monthly bill will be less than most people's cell phone or cable bill. I think that's a reasonable price for something as unique and transformative as a college experience. There is obviously a serious problem here, but not necessar…

I graduated with close to the average amount of debt, around $22,000. But $22,000 was NOT the whole amount I paid, just the amount leftover after my parents and I paid as much as we could up front. The total cost was closer to $60,000. Still, I graduated with a degree that will help me pay my debt off in a reasonable amount of time.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just let students default. The problem would be solved in a week. Poor investments should get poor returns. You should be able to default on any loan out of human dignity.

> The problem would be solved in a week. Solved in what way though? The end solution state might be one where loans are less available, further entrenching generational income inequality.

Yes. Loans should be harder to get. This will reduce school costs, reduce applicant numbers, and force students to really think if college is necessary.

Community colleges will take more of a lead, tuition will plummet, kids will enter the work force without a “unforgivable” loan.

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