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Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

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Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#251

Post by sebringj »

draw_down wrote: post #111
sebringj wrote: post #30

Why I admire Ryan is "I shouldn't just complain without giving a solution..." and he gave a solution, more than once. I have done this on a no-one-cares scale but it really is better to do yourself when you can. Also, Ryan has some sharp sarcastic wit which is pretty fun to watch on this talk.

I thought that was nice too, but I wish we as an industry placed a little more value on simply admitting that something is bad or suboptimal. You're not supposed to "complain" or "be negative", which I think is unfortunate in lots of ways.

Yah I get that. I remember at my work, I said something negative about how we were sending out emails that they looked like they were from 1990. I got a lot of backlash for complaining but next day gave them a modern solution and bam, they were super happy. Maybe its just human nature but providing something to fix it rather than just being unhappy alone is more powerful.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#252

Post by sagichmal »

jcranendonk wrote: post #110
sagichmal wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> golang tried no centralized package management by using git repo. It didn't end well. What? There's no fundamental problem with it. It will continue. What do you mean?

I like go as a language, but its lack of package management is the single reason I no longer use it.

Go has had primitive package management for 5+ years, and official package management (in some form or another) for a year.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#253

Post by manigandham »

ahansen wrote: post #247
manigandham wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because the loop never solves the original problem. It's about organization and bloat, not pure speed and leanness. Rebuild from scratch but also recreate all the existing functionality in a much better standard library and finally the chain can be broken. But nobody wants to do that.

I believe this is what Microsoft is trying to do with .NET Core. It's been successful so far, though they aren't at feature parity yet.

Yes, arguably the .NET Framework almost did it and is still one of the most productive frameworks available, but .NET Core has definitely improved things substantially. It's fast, well-designed, and full-featured and I expect usage to pick up greatly.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#254

Post by BigJono »

overcast wrote: post #125
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood why this is a benefit when the one language is - let's say - suboptimal in many ways. The interfaces between server- and client-side code should be well-defined and language-independent. You don't want the same people writing both, because it's harder to check that your API is working to spec if it doesn't get fully independent testing. There's also a lot of useful server-side optimisation and s…

You don't see how having to know only one language, is easier/faster than having to know two languages? A lot of people are doing both front and backend work. Often times it's a single person running the show. I'll tell you right now I use node for ALL my web projects, because I only have to focus on a single language. When I wear every hat managing the domain, server, databases, mail, user questions, and everything…

I don't see it. Any old idiot can learn a programming language. The difficulty doesn't come from the language, it comes from the environment and tooling.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#255

Post by pera »

ninjakeyboard wrote: post #108
maerF0x0 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This fails from the false dichotomy of speed of execution vs speed of development (which includes fixing bugs). Well written languages optimize to a certain weighted preference of the two and some languages deliver more of _both_ than others. For example; Typescript is fast to write. and Golang is reasonably quick to write, _and_ execute. Both should have ~15% less bugs than javascript, potentially making them faster…

what is the 15% figure from? I'm suddenly working with a dynamically typed language (elixir) coming from scala and I do find more bugs. Would like some hard evidence to support that so just curious.

Have you tried to use Dialyzer or Dialyxir and typespecs?

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#256

Post by kjeetgill »

tlrobinson wrote: post #185
jonny_eh wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just: require("fs").readdir(".").then(console.log)

That's the legacy callback version. In practice you'd probably do: const fs = require("fs").promises; // ... fs.readdir(".").then(console.log);

Ah, thats pretty nice. The previous example was pretty janky but I didn't foresee it being used like this. Eyes opened.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#257

Post by jeremyjh »

royjacobs wrote: post #170
cpeterso wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good example of the Innovator's Dilemma: the enterprise incumbent is unseated by some "crappy" lightweight solution that is easier to get up to speed and solves enough of the problem. The complexity, accidental and essential, comes later.

Yes, this is exactly what's happening. Existing tools are seen as too complex because people don't seem to be realizing that the complexity is not accidental, but necessary. I'm not trying to say that Java has no accidental complexity of course, I don't want to open that can of worms :)

Well there is also a problem with people who don't want to say no, and don't want to stop working on their project when it is finished. Adding all the features that appease a different 1% of your user base is what leads to the bloat - and it still is bloat when 90% of your users will never use the functionality that externalizes all kinds of leaky abstractions and other costs onto them. Just because that bloat may happen to your successor as well doesn't make it right in either case.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#258

Post by edgartaor »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #219
royjacobs wrote: post #121

I think it's quite interesting to see that originally node.js was presented as a bloat-free alternative to "enterprise languages" like Java, C# or even Python or Ruby. A lot of complexity was subsequently added in an ad-hoc way which has resulted in (for example) a package management system that's wildly out of control. It's very popular of course, so I'm definitely not arguing that metric. However, the stuff that wa…

I think this is a story that gets repeated lots of times in our world of open source software dev. 1. X is SO bloated and poorly engineered full of bad legacy decisions. 2. We can totally do better let's invent a new thing, Y! 3. Wow, Y is so clean and fast and understandable. 4. But it doesn't do this thing a bunch of people reasonably really need... let's add it. (repeat 3 and 4 a few hundred times) 5. Y is so bloa…

Obligatory xkcd reference: https://xkcd.com/927/

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#259

Post by minitech »

OvermindDL1 wrote: post #227
minitech wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds to me like the list has one item: “the npm registry once allowed users to delete packages”. [2] and [3] have nothing to do with immutability. None of them have to do with reinventing the wheel, either, unless you wanted Node to use Maven for package management?

They don't mean immutable as in language form, but immutable packaging system is the general form where you can add but not remove packages to it so as to not break things, which is the common form among most maven/cargo/hunter/etc.../etc... dependency packaging systems. It's generally considered that npm supporting deleting packages was a major mis-design, which became very public when a popular tiny package got del…

> They don't mean immutable as in language form, but immutable packaging system

I know. [2] and [3] have nothing to do with a package repository you can’t delete things from.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#260

Post by redavni »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #219
royjacobs wrote: post #121

I think it's quite interesting to see that originally node.js was presented as a bloat-free alternative to "enterprise languages" like Java, C# or even Python or Ruby. A lot of complexity was subsequently added in an ad-hoc way which has resulted in (for example) a package management system that's wildly out of control. It's very popular of course, so I'm definitely not arguing that metric. However, the stuff that wa…

I think this is a story that gets repeated lots of times in our world of open source software dev. 1. X is SO bloated and poorly engineered full of bad legacy decisions. 2. We can totally do better let's invent a new thing, Y! 3. Wow, Y is so clean and fast and understandable. 4. But it doesn't do this thing a bunch of people reasonably really need... let's add it. (repeat 3 and 4 a few hundred times) 5. Y is so bloa…

This is why it's so important to have good leadership. For example, Linus Torvalds.
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