China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other • Hacker News Board

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#251

Post by boomboomsubban » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 3:21 PM UTC

kinsomo wrote: post #230

boomboomsubban wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proof? Libya has currently been broken into four or more warring states, each controlling some part of Libya. >Also the Syria and Yemen are civil wars. Don't know how you think it's reasonable to pin that on the "US, NATO and friends". By providing the various sides with arms and support. Though I think you can put much of the blame of the civil wars staring on the US, even if you disagree the wars are still dramatic…

>> Also the Syria and Yemen are civil wars. Don't know how you think it's reasonable to pin that on the "US, NATO and friends". > Though I think you can put much of the blame of the civil wars staring on the US, even if you disagree the wars are still dramatically different than it would be without US support. I think that's profoundly ignorant and belies lazy thinking, especially in relation to Syria. The precise ca…

>I think that's profoundly ignorant and belies lazy thinking, especially in relation to Syria.

Why is it ignorant and lazy? The US has been backing the Syrian opposition since 2006, and arming them since 2011. Additionally, it was the US invasion of Iraq and the subsequent mismanagement that allowed ISIL to gain power in the region.

Mostly beside the point though. The US has been an active participant in the war for a while now, and other outside support doesn't change that.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#252

Post by Can_Not » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 3:37 PM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #143

kinsomo wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I very much doubt it is sustainable. The cost of policing is quite substantial and the productivity lost is hard to replace which adds to the cost. Why do you think the Chinese government can't sustain the cost? Intensive policing is manpower intensive, and China presently has manpower to spare. They also don't have to deal with democratic pressures to contain the cost and redirect the savings to programs that bene…

In my view, they are not sustaining the cost. We are, by buying their products. If totalitarianism becomes universal, that's when it ceases to be sustainable. The ruling class has luxuries that they could not have developed for themselves without them being broadly available. I'm thinking of things like cell phones, the Internet, and possibly the money system. Parasites need a viable host.

I love that we're talking about how bad totalitarianism is meanwhile we literally have the upperclass exporting jobs to China for a quick buck and president who campaigned on bringing them back who just betrayed his base (and his country) by helping a Chinese company keep their jobs... Living in the free-ist country in the world apparently means you're free to sell out your fellow man to the totalitarian state overseas.

I think _that_ is the sustainability problem we need to talk about. We're feeding them and starving ourselves.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#253

Post by ataturk » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 3:44 PM UTC

kinsomo wrote: post #163

madengr wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems many Americans are willing to crap all over the 2nd Amendment, which is specifically in place to prevent totalitarian government.

> Seems many Americans are willing to crap all over the 2nd Amendment, which is specifically in place to prevent totalitarian government. Exactly. If America has learned anything from the past half century of foreign military adventures, it should be that a big modern Army can't easily defeat a motivated insurgency that has the support and sympathy in the local population. The 2nd Amendment may have a lot of costs, b…

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Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#254

Post by StellarTabi » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 3:54 PM UTC

s2g wrote: post #203

amaccuish wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being downvoted because what you've said is an inconvenient truth for a lot of Americans it seems.

also because it's whataboutism containing references to things widely regarded as stains on American history.

You're never allowed to mention anything bad that's ever happened in the West, that's whataboutism. Randomly bringing up extremist scenarios like Mao's genocide of landlords or Stalin's gulags to prematurely shut down moderate pro-left discussions like "let's make healthcare a little more socialized in the US"? That's not whataboutism™.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#255

Post by msh » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 4:39 PM UTC

jdavis703 wrote: post #8

Roritharr wrote: post #6

Besides this being dystopian out of the western libertarian pov, i wonder what it actually does against crime? I imagine a crime free city would be an interesting human phenomenon without equal. The side effects of there not being any undetected and unprosecuted crime would be fascinating.

What is crime though? Do you want to live somewhere where spitting on a random sidewalk in front of the wrong camera means you're banned from flying for a year? Is the fear of criminal violence greater than the fear of state violence?

Depends on the country. Among my Danish countrymen I am pretty certain most is more afraid of criminal violence.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#256

Post by kinsomo » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

igivanov wrote: post #249

kinsomo wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Also the Syria and Yemen are civil wars. Don't know how you think it's reasonable to pin that on the "US, NATO and friends". > Though I think you can put much of the blame of the civil wars staring on the US, even if you disagree the wars are still dramatically different than it would be without US support. I think that's profoundly ignorant and belies lazy thinking, especially in relation to Syria. The precise ca…

>The precise cause of the civil war was the domestic policies of the Assad regime https://www.sott.net/article/377588-Syrian-War-for-Dummies-T... I think your version is ~ between Disney and high school. read your [5] carefully again (I am sure you haven't), and note the nice sidebar on the right "Covert United States involvement in regime change", it's not there by accident. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Syca…

>> The precise cause of the civil war was the domestic policies of the Assad regime

> https://www.sott.net/article/377588-Syrian-War-for-Dummies-T....

Sott.net doesn't seem like a very reliable source. This appears to be a friendly description of it in a related wiki (https://thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Signs_of_the_Times):

> SOTT is a research project of the non-profit Quantum Future Group (QFG) and is run by volunteers. The project includes collecting, arranging, and analyzing news items that seem to best reflect the movement of macrocosmic quantum energies on the planet. This research further includes noting whether or not human beings, individually and/or collectively, can actually remember from one day to the next the state of the planet, and whether they are able to accurately read that information and make intelligent decisions about their future based on that knowledge. In short, SOTT is an experiment.

> While the site began as a one-woman operation, this work quickly attracted some truly fine, open minds – people interested in truth, many of whom are scientific professionals and whose work on SOTT is anonymous for their own protection. SOTT and QFG has been attacked, suppressed, and marginalized by the Powers That Be in ways that no other work has been, leaving editors and researchers with the distinct impression that they must be on the right track.

"the Powers That Be" links a page about the "Matrix Control System."

This is a much less friendly description of the person who founded sott.net: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Laura_Knight_Jadczyk.

> and note the nice sidebar on the right "Covert United States involvement in regime change", it's not there by accident.

1) That lists the Syrian civil war. 2) It doesn't contradict anything that I said.

The precise cause of the present Syrian civil war was the domestic policies of the Assad regime. No one pretends that the US was friendly or neutral towards that regime prior to the war. I would not surprise me if the US took some action against it prior to that, but those actions were unsuccessful and not causally linked to the civil war (beyond butterfly-effect level stuff).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore:

> "Launched in 2012 or 2013"

That post-dates the beginning of the Syrian civil war.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#257

Post by pas » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

nomass wrote: post #178

pas wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of military spending, we should get our education and politics act together. We should be at least ready to pivot to self sufficiency. We depend on Putin's mercy for energy, because a lot of us skipped game theory in kindergarden apparently. Someone mentioned cell phones. Yes that'd be good, to have a full end to end electronics pipeline around here. And so on.

We have very little military spending. The ukraine invasion was a very successfull testrun for Putin. We in Europe we keep ourselve weak and defenseless. Why?

The parent comment advocated for more military spending. I tried to offer better places for money.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#258

Post by igivanov » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 5:52 PM UTC

kinsomo wrote: post #256

igivanov wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The precise cause of the civil war was the domestic policies of the Assad regime https://www.sott.net/article/377588-Syrian-War-for-Dummies-T... I think your version is ~ between Disney and high school. read your [5] carefully again (I am sure you haven't), and note the nice sidebar on the right "Covert United States involvement in regime change", it's not there by accident. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Syca…

>> The precise cause of the civil war was the domestic policies of the Assad regime > https://www.sott.net/article/377588-Syrian-War-for-Dummies-T... . Sott.net doesn't seem like a very reliable source. This appears to be a friendly description of it in a related wiki ( https://thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Signs_of_the_Times ): > SOTT is a research project of the non-profit Quantum Future Group (QFG) and is run by…

>Sott.net doesn't seem like a very reliable source

irrelevant, it's not a source but a compilation with links to various sources.

>The precise cause of the present Syrian civil war was the domestic policies of the Assad regime

no it wasn't. it was a pretext, an opportunity the the US and UK seized upon to concoct a crisis - precisely like they did in various other cases.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#259

Post by kinsomo » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 5:54 PM UTC

mr_toad wrote: post #226

kinsomo wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems many Americans are willing to crap all over the 2nd Amendment, which is specifically in place to prevent totalitarian government. Exactly. If America has learned anything from the past half century of foreign military adventures, it should be that a big modern Army can't easily defeat a motivated insurgency that has the support and sympathy in the local population. The 2nd Amendment may have a lot of costs, b…

Successful insurgencies these days are supplied with heavy weapons and training by outside powers. You’re not going to do anything against armour and air power with small arms.

> Successful insurgencies these days are supplied with heavy weapons and training by outside powers. You’re not going to do anything against armour and air power with small arms.

An insurgency has a lot of freedom in choosing its targets. If they don't have the weapons to directly attack armor or air power, they can avoid them. And with armor, there are other options, such as IEDs.

Also, I'd bet that an American insurgency against a totalitarian American government would get outside arms and support, as well as sympathy, support, and defections from actual US Army units. I don't think the US military would be able to maintain the same level of cohesion it has during foreign wars in a civil war.

A totalitarian regime would probably repeal the 2nd amendment as one of it's first acts, the the existing stock of small arms and ammunition would be enough for an insurgency or rebellion to start. I'd be much harder for a disarmed population to begin resistance.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#260

Post by pas » Sun, Jun 03, 2018, 5:56 PM UTC

joejerryronnie wrote: post #220

What happens if we find out China is committing atrocities like ethnic cleansing? Will we implement some economic sanctions or will we send in the troops?

North Korea is still doing whatever the hell they feel like doing. Because bombs (and artillery pointed at Seoul).