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Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

bloomberg.com

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Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#251

Post by H1Supreme »

jernfrost wrote: post #126

This is such an obvious move, that I predicted it 2 years ago: https://medium.com/@Jernfrost/in-3-years-apple-will-switch-f... My prediction in 2016, was that Apple would switch to ARM based laptops in 2019, so it looks like I am off by just 1 year. A quick summary of my argument back then was that ARM was getting fast ENOUGH, but are considerably cheaper. Standardizing on one CPU architecture for all their products…

> Sure single thread performance wont be able to compete with intel but they might not need to.

In regards to audio applications like Logic and Ableton, single thread performance is probably the biggest factor. Individual plugins and effects are all single threaded within a DAW.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#252

Post by jernfrost »

otterley wrote: post #194
jernfrost wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would definitely be an interesting and very surprising development. Like I would really like to hear Apple's rational for developing an x86 CPU. x86 is a far more complex CPU architecture which they have zero experience in making. ARM in contrast they have experience with all the way back to Newton, and it has a nice licensing preposition. I can't see them doing something different than ARM and x86. That would b…

> x86 really has nothing going for it architecture wise. It just has a market because Intel makes fast chips that run existing software. People buy computers to run software. If they can't run their existing software on it, the computer has no value. Just like with the original PPC-to-Intel transition, where Apple provided a PPC emulator on Intel, if they go with ARM, Apple will have to provide Intel-to-ARM translati…

"People buy computers to run software. If they can't run their existing software on it"

Obviously, but my point was that this mattered more in the past. Apple has so many tools and arrangements in place today to make a transition less painful. They got fat binaries and bundles. They got bitcode. They have really strong control over the app delivery process by having it all go through their app store. Almost everybody use xCode which they also control.

I can't remember ever running very much on PPC emulation on last transition. Usually I used fat binaries. Apple has been through so many of these transitions and gotten better at it every time. This will likely be quit smooth.

"But now, a significant number people are using Macs as hosts for x86 Linux and Windows virtual machines."

Really? I've been a Mac user since OSX came out and have very rarely encountered people who do that. I think this user group is too small for Apple to care. Anyway Linux should work fine, and I believe Windows also runs on ARM although not all software so I think this is not as big of an issue as you might think.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#253

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

egypturnash wrote: post #239
Stranger43 wrote: post #213

Have anyone checked with adobe and autodesk if this essentially kills the professional mac workstation as a viable product going forward? I have no doubt they can make it fast and usable enough for the naive consumer living inside the bubble of what relatively inexpensive(consumer grade) app-store apps can do and that microsoft will release something pretending to be MS office for a new ARM macbook line, but photosho…

Apple has done this twice already. 680x0 to PowerPC, then PowerPC to Intel. Adobe's come along on both of these.

Those changes were all to more powerful processors such that emulating the old architecture wouldn't be that bad. In this instance, Apple would likely be going to a less powerful processors and thus emulation at any reasonable level of performance wouldn't be that viable.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#254

Post by huebnerob »

bhouston wrote: post #223
Stranger43 wrote: post #213

Have anyone checked with adobe and autodesk if this essentially kills the professional mac workstation as a viable product going forward? I have no doubt they can make it fast and usable enough for the naive consumer living inside the bubble of what relatively inexpensive(consumer grade) app-store apps can do and that microsoft will release something pretending to be MS office for a new ARM macbook line, but photosho…

Adobe has a lot of stuff that works well on iOS. ARM has neon instructions for SIMD. I think they will be okay. Changing over from one SIMD architecture to another is not that hard. AutoCAD isn't ultra optimized for Mac anyhow, it will be okay. This transition may screw up or significantly slow down VMs of Intel-based OSes like Ubuntu.

Your last point may be a bit of an understatement. It's going to absolutely annihilate x86 virtualization on the Mac. Like, I don't think parallels or VMware will even attempt to write an x86 emulator for ARM, they'll just pack up and leave.

But the Mac thrived for a very long time without x86 compatibility, and it can do the same again, virtualization was always kind of a happy accident for us anyway.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#255

Post by [deleted] »

Stranger43 wrote: post #213

Have anyone checked with adobe and autodesk if this essentially kills the professional mac workstation as a viable product going forward? I have no doubt they can make it fast and usable enough for the naive consumer living inside the bubble of what relatively inexpensive(consumer grade) app-store apps can do and that microsoft will release something pretending to be MS office for a new ARM macbook line, but photosho…

[deleted]

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#256

Post by [deleted] »

MBCook wrote: post #48
jimrandomh wrote: post #30

Based on this article, it doesn't sound like Bloomberg has enough information to distinguish between Apple being committed to a transition, or Apple developing chips to improve their negotiating position with Intel. It's also very unlikely to happen on such a fast timetable; given the IP situation, it's unlikely Apple could make an x86_64 chip, and any move away from x86_64 is going to require significant work by thi…

I wonder if this is more about coprocessors and other chips than the main CPU. I know the iPad Pros certainly outperform many cheaper Intel chips while using lower power. But I doubt they would want to split the line into half ARM half Intel, or move the Mac Pro to ARM.

[deleted]

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#257

Post by criddell »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #229

This might just be a bargaining move on Apple’s part, but I don’t think so. I think that long term they are much better off controlling their entire hardware stack. I wouldn’t be surprised to even see them make their own display screens. As an Apple customer, I like this idea also. For 20 years, I used to be a desktop Linux fanatic and later became a fan of Android. In the last few years, I have switched to using all…

The only thing I have a hard time trusting Intel with is the way they have handled questions around their Management Engine. I think they have done a poor job convincing us that it's safe or at least benign.

It will be interesting to see if Apple includes a secretive management engine. If they do, then the speculation that it's required by one or more governments will be dialed up to 11.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#258

Post by enitihas »

olympus wrote: post #55
Joeri wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except apple has demonstrated they can design cpu’s that outperform the (android) competition. Who is to say they can’t make ARM cpu’s that genuinely outperform intel? Intel hasn’t executed all that well lately anyway.

Being able to go toe to toe with low-power areas says little about being able to compete against full-power areas, and vice versa. Intel is a laughing stock when trying to compete in low power areas even though they dominate full power. ARM is the only choice in low power outside of a few Chinese chips and Samsung's Exynos, but yet ARM hasn't made a dent in full power applications. The two areas do not scale as easil…

Isn't Exynos also ARM?

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#259

Post by ggg9990 »

Intel’s R&D budget is $13 billion and Apple’s operating income is $61 billion, so Apple has more than enough money to play this game. I do wonder why it makes sense for them, other than a possible unification from top to bottom of the desktop and mobile computing paradigms, with everything from the Apple Watch to the Mac Pro running the same instruction set.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#260

Post by otterley »

jernfrost wrote: post #252
otterley wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> x86 really has nothing going for it architecture wise. It just has a market because Intel makes fast chips that run existing software. People buy computers to run software. If they can't run their existing software on it, the computer has no value. Just like with the original PPC-to-Intel transition, where Apple provided a PPC emulator on Intel, if they go with ARM, Apple will have to provide Intel-to-ARM translati…

"People buy computers to run software. If they can't run their existing software on it" Obviously, but my point was that this mattered more in the past. Apple has so many tools and arrangements in place today to make a transition less painful. They got fat binaries and bundles. They got bitcode. They have really strong control over the app delivery process by having it all go through their app store. Almost everybody…

> I've been a Mac user since OSX came out and have very rarely encountered people who do that.

Are you a software developer developing for Linux targets? That describes nearly _all_ back-end development work done in the last 10+ years in SF and Silicon Valley.

> Linux should work fine, and I believe Windows also runs on ARM although not all software

Have you actually tried running ARM virtual machines on ARM hosts for these two environments? This can hardly be described as a mature art. If even remotely usable software exists today for this purpose, I'd love to see it.

Even if it did, the fact that developers usually target x86 builds (for deployment in the server clusters) makes this less useful than one might otherwise think.

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